A press release which promoted Sports Illustrated’s five-part investigative report into the Oklahoma State football program said SI wanted to venture inside a college football factory and see “how the sausage is made.”
Sticking with that theme, anybody interested in going behind the scenes to see how SI made its sausage?
Former OSU quarterback Aso Pogi was among ex-Cowboy players interviewed by SI for the project. During a telephone question-and-answer session Wednesday morning, Pogi provided behind-the-scenes details on what he said was a “really, really awkward” interview with an SI writer.
How did your interview session with SI come about?
Pogi: He just showed up unnannounced at my church. I’m a youth pastor. I have been a youth pastor for about seven years over at First United Methodist Church in Lawton. He just showed up after a bible study. He approached me and just said ‘hey, I’m doing a story with Sports Illustrated. I’m so-and-so Thayer Evans and I know you from back in the day.... and I’m doing this deal. I’m with Sports Illustrated and I’m doing this deal with OSU.’
So I just kind of (told him), I was like, ‘man, we’re doing bible study.’ I figured (the story) was something about OSU, just what they are doing now. I just wanted to take the time to hear it out and see what’s going on. It was all nice and dandy and I said ‘why don’t you just step in my office real quick and we’ll see what’s going on.’
He just started talking and we had some small talk and then he went into what he was there for, as far as just asking me questions out of the blue. Like, are you aware of this and this and this as far as players being paid and this and that? And I said ‘absolutely not. I don’t know about any of that stuff. And I never saw it.’
The biggest thing about the interview was I didn’t know it was an interview. I just thought we were just having a conversation. He didn’t state it was an interview. He just said ‘hey, I’m with Sports Illustrated,’ so I kind of figured that. But as we went into the conversation, he just kept saying things about OSU. I’m sitting there and I’m in shock. I’m just kind of sitting there in shock, like ‘whoa, that was going on?’
He wrote in the article that Aso Pogi said ‘it’s a big deal because I’m the starting quarterback.’ He was actually referencing the fact that he quoted off (allegations) and I was sitting there going ‘man, that’s crazy.’ And then he would name off the times that these things were going on and the people that were involved.
And I’m sitting there going ‘whoa, that is really crazy.’ The words that I actually said went into the reference of ‘that (allegation is) a big deal because I’m the starting quarterback.’ That’s how it really came back. I wasn’t saying ‘I was the starting quarterback and that’s a big deal.’ I was saying I was unaware of anything like that during my time at OSU.... I can only be accountable for me and what I saw and what happened. But I didn’t see anything.
Were you recorded and, if you were recorded, did you know about it?
Pogi: No. He never said anything. He just started conversing. All of this was just small talk. We were just conversing and he just brought up certain things and then he just kind of got into it, like did you know this? I’m just sitting there like, whoa, that’s pretty crazy. He never stated that he was recording the conversation or anything like that.
He didn’t put a recorder on the table or you didn’t see a recorder?
Pogi: Nope. He sure didn’t.
(NOTE: On Wednesday afternoon, SI indicated that the interview was recorded on Evans' cell phone. In response, Pogi said he did not know cell phones could be used as recorders and he said he never saw a cell phone on his office desk during their conversation.)
He just took notes on a notepad?
Pogi: He didn’t even take notes. We were just conversing. It was just a conversation in my office. He didn’t take notes. He didn’t pull out a (recorder). He didn’t define anything. He just wanted to talk to me about it, you know? I said, ‘oh, OK.’ Again, I’m thinking that this is something else, like OSU quarterbacks from back in the day and wanting to quote me on what I thought about so-and-so or whatever. That’s really what I thought this was about. He did not put a (recorder) up there and say ‘this is an interview for Sports Illustrated. I’m going to be recording this.’ None of that happened. Absolutely not.
You didn’t see him take even one note?
Pogi: Absolutely not. He didn’t have a pen or a pad. He didn’t write anything down. If he was recording, he had it in his pocket or something. He didn’t have anything. It was all out of the ordinary. I have done my share of interviews with people. And just the professionalism wasn’t there... Really it was just small talk that led into allegations. He kind of bombarded me and threw it all in all together, just trying to fish up things. I wouldn’t give up anything because there was nothing to give. I really, truly didn’t see anything or know of anything. He asked me about myself and the whole situation with (area FCA director) John Talley. I was honest and honest in saying that, yeah, I spoke (to FCA groups) three or four times a week. It was the greatest moments of my career at Oklahoma State. And when I spoke, I didn’t get paid to speak. I got reimbursed for gas. I was traveling. I was driving everywhere, every single week. That was my big deal. If anybody knew me, they knew that was a big deal for me.
At that time, weren’t you John Talley’s go-to guy to send all over the place to speak to kids?
Pogi: And I loved it. I really loved it. And that’s why I’m a youth pastor today. That led right into what I decided to do with my life. And so I just was always driving around and John reimbursed me for my gas money and he would give me a $20 bill to put into my gas tank to drive to Ponca City and then back to Oklahoma City. That’s just the truth. I have no reason to lie about that.
And I was also asked about staying at John Talley’s house. And the question was asked was did I ever pay any rent? And I said no. But that’s the truth. What wasn’t asked of me was ‘Aso, John Talley claims that you worked it off.’ I want to be really clear about this: When I thought about that time, and, again, all of this is coming at me at one time, like being bombarded with these questions all of a sudden. I’m just being honest. Saul Talley, who was John’s son, and George Horton were my best friends. These are the people that were my best friends and I stayed there for the summer. And me staying there, I lived rent-free, but I worked it off. I cut grass, I cleaned the pool and (cleaned up) horse poop. I did it all, man.
But it was not one of those things that I knew it was what I needed to do. John said if you are going to stay here, you are going to have to work. I didn’t think of it that way. To me, it’s called gratitude. It’s called being grateful and just having a place to stay. That’s what you do. That’s just how my momma raised me. You worked your butt off for this man that let you stay at his home and I did. He said you’re going to work and that’s exactly what I did, but I didn’t have to state that, you understand what I am saying? It was never asked me ‘did you work your rent off?’ No. I didn’t look at it that way. But it is an actuality if you want to get technical if I did. I just think I was misinterpeted in that way, but I stand by my statements and things like that.
When did the writer come to your church -- was it recent or a long time ago?
Pogi: It was last week, on Wednesday night. I was just kind of shocked, like why are they quoting me? I told them I didn’t see anything? But everybody is calling me and saying ‘Pogi, what are you talking about and what are you talking about John Talley?’ John Talley means the world to me. This is one of the best men I’ve ever met in my life. He was in my wedding. It’s like, are you serious? I was just blown away. But he just showed up unannounced last Wednesday night and went through the process. It was a bit of a shocker to me?
Did the writer lead you to believe it was going to be a positive story or he didn’t say that?
He didn’t really say anything. He just said he was doing a follow-up. They had interviewed over 60 other players that were saying this was going on and I was sitting there like ‘wow, that’s crazy.’ And he started naming off some of the people that were in prison. And I said ‘man, that is really crazy.’ If they recorded the interview, you will hear me in sarcasm say ‘oh my goodness. This is crazy.’ But then he would ask me ‘Pogi, did you see any of this stuff? And I would go ‘no, absolutely not. I don’t know what you are talking about.’
But it’s funny what was printed can be twisted and that’s what I meant that it was taken out of context. If it was being recorded, which I have no idea if it was or not, you can clearly hear me say ‘oh my goodness, this was going on? Man, whoa.’ Because I never saw it. You can completely hear my statements of shock. And everything that was said, it was said by him. ‘We’ve got reliable sources.’ And he named off some people that are in prison now and said ‘we went in spoke to them in prison.’ And I’m just like ‘whoa, he is in prison?’ You can hear me say ‘wow, he’s in prison?’ He’s just going off on different things that were alleged about the program. And I was kind of taking it in. But once he asked me, I was very definitive that I never saw anything like that.
Like you, most former players are saying they saw nothing like what was alleged about the money. But one former player, Fath’ Carter, was an SI source and he says he is sticking by his story...
Pogi: People (have said SI talked to) guys who were disgruntled and they interviewed guys that were disgruntled. I enjoyed my time. I left Oklahoma State (and transferred) because I wanted to further my career on the playing field. I just really felt like I could play the game. That’s it. I love Josh Fields. We were buddies. We still associate today. Billy Bajema... These were the kind of guys who just made it so fun at OSU. They were high-character guys.
As for Fath’, I didn’t really hang out with Fath’. I don’t know. And it was alleged that guys were disgruntled and that’s why they were speaking out. And I was mixed in that group. I want to be clear. I was very happy at Oklahoma State. I lost job to a guy (Fields) who played his butt off. I lost my job to somebody who earned it. I’ve got nothing but respect for the Oklahoma State program and for John Talley and the FCA. That’s probably where my heart was the most hurt was the fact that these allegations about a man who has done some phenomenal things and has opened a door and shown so many young kids what life is really all about and has led to the direction of who I am today. When I hear guys like Fath’ Carter making these deals, I don’t know where he gets it from. And Fath’ didn’t play as much as people think. I don’t know that he was a starter. I may be wrong, but I don’t remember him being a starter like that, so if they were paying guys who didn’t start, wow, that’s pretty crazy. I have never heard of that.
Do you think a reason they approached you was because they thought you were mad that you had lost the starting quarterback job while at OSU?
Pogi: I think that’s exactly right. He was trying to get me to go that route. But I wasn’t pissed off at Oklahoma State. He said ‘Oh, Pogi, they did you wrong.’ And I was like, ‘well, I enjoyed my time at Oklahoma State.’ And he kept trying to say ‘but they did you so wrong. I said ‘well, I may have had (my disagreements) with coach, but I enjoyed my time.’ It was nothing against the program. But that’s the route he was trying to take. You know what I mean? They did you wrong and here’s your opportunity to do something about it. But it didn’t go over with me. I’m just going to tell you the truth, which I did. The whole thing was just really, really awkward to me. And, like I said, I have done plenty of interviews to know the guys in the media are pretty forthcoming and ‘hey, we are going to do this.’ He is not one of those guys. I’ll just say that.
