40years of Puppys, (4/21/2009 10:46:12 PM)

Thanks Susan, I understand & agree.Very well put. I would buy your Novel!!

40years of Puppys, (4/21/2009 10:48:51 PM)

Vets money bill--This bill is made by the Vets to make more money. I have noticed the last few years that vets care more about money than animals & this bill proves it! Lawyers,Doctors & now Vets don't care about us, just our money. If you want to stop unlicened puppy breeders just report them to the IRS as they pay no taxes on income. USDA has a strong control on licened breeders like me

Tired of the hack job, Tulsa (10/23/2007 4:06:14 AM)

Another day, another attempt to paint small breeders as puppy mills.

I repeat the question I asked last time. Is the Tulsa World going to return all that nasty money it made from the HUNDREDS of pet sales classifieds featured right here on this website, or is only bad for others to make money from puppy sales?

Shame on you. Either you are being hypocritical in profiting from that nasty old puppy industry in Oklahoma, or you have grossly exagerated the actions of a few disreputable breeders for the sake of sensationalism and profit. Which one is it?

Arfy, (10/23/2007 8:01:56 AM)

When are you going to donate some of the money you made being a puppy mill # 1?

Joe, Tulsa (10/23/2007 8:03:15 AM)

This series of articles has so far focused on a lot of bad and very little good. To say all breeders are bad is wrong and to as with this article, we see people starting to carve out little niches for themselves, it's ok to regulate the other guy but not me, or not the individual back yarder, or the guy who says he is a hobby breeder etc..

Most concerning is the author does not seem to demonstrate a working knowledge of what is legal and what is not, Even as far to say Pennsylvania leads the nation in regulation and inspection, is so far from the truth, the validity of the reporting is becoming suspect.

Inconsistencies within the regulations of the USDA and even from inspector to inspector, has long been a problem.

Lets us not forget, the government can not always be trusted to do a good job for us, they usually do a good job on us. Most Americans who live in the Midwest are honest, independant,and self reliant who reject governmental intervention of any kind.

Mention was made of the PAWS bill this was an attempt by the AKC and the HSUS to become appointed as the nations dog police. Which in our thinking is an excellent example of how far off base and uninformed the public actually is about the organizations. First the AKC is a "DOG Registry", nothing more and nothing less, The HSUS is one of the most successful fund raising organization in the United States, second only to the Red Cross, On closer review you will find huge salaries and expenses and very little as a percentage of the money ever goes to the benefit of any animal, We must give credit to the HSUS and the SPCA where credit is due, they successfully brutally kill more companion animals than anyone world wide.

Legislators who are looking forward to grabbing some press should remember the consequences, suffered by Sen. Sanitorium, PA he was the primary sponsor of PAWS. He has since been sent home in defeat... good riddance

Animal lovers nationwide sent millions in contributions to anyone who would run against him.

The message here is clear "Don't mess with the rights of Americans to have and own pets."

Not wanting to stray to far from the subject of Oklahoma's problems. We need to see a logical study of the entire industry, and the pitfalls as they exist. Caution needs to be taken when you start to put things on paper. and we must maintain respect of the individuals rights and his property rights. We must remember that while we as a people love our companion animals, we must not forget the fact that these animals are domesticated animals, what makes us think a dog or a cat is more important than a horse or a cow. The major difference is we don't eat cats and dogs here in America

To an intelligent thinker, you can see the problems presented in regulation expand rapidly, Who is the problem? Where do you start? Who is going to pay for it in the end?

There are far to many venues to allow one group to dominate input, Breeders need to be involved in the regulations for breeders, a statewide oversight organization for regulation input should be created and the committee should consist only of professional breeders who are in good standing. Self regulation is the key to successful development of any organization, when you start bringing in people with hidden agendas to destroy an industry segment, you will never have meaningful reform.

Local cities need to have local mandate for animal control in their jurisdiction. Each city or township needs to establish the regulations to be consistent with the needs and thinking of their community. A good example would be dog licensing and spay and neuter laws, community specific. The local cities need to over see and implement a local policy to allow shelters to kill or "Not Kill"

Stray animals.

Dog dumping and abandonment needs to be addressed with a mandatory microchip program so when a dog or cat is found to be abandoned the expenses for their rescue and or demise will be born by the owner of record, plus

Abby, Tulsa (10/23/2007 8:46:58 AM)

Instead of advertising all of these puppy mills, why doesn't the Tulsa World do the right thing and do a feature on animal rescue groups? Take a couple of weeks and recognize the real heroes. The rescue people who have to clean up the messes that these breeders leave behind. There are so many good rescue groups in the Tulsa Area. ARF, HALO, Animal Aid, Tulsa Boxer Rescue, Small Paws, Lab Rescue, Poodle Rescue, and many others!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are the people who need the publicity!!!!!!!!!!!!

Animal Lover, (10/23/2007 9:00:59 AM)

I was quite excited to see the beginning of this series on Sunday...now, I'm just more irritated and completely fascinated by the misquided ignorance that appears to run rampant through Oklahoma and other states. The main purpose of any regualtion should be for the WELFARE of the animals...not to further pad the pockets of the so-called "breeders". If you can't abide by the rules to come, then get out of the business! You're not in it for anything other than the thousands of dollars uneducated and unsuspecting consumers will spend to get that cute little puppy. I also a wee bit disgusted with Rep Denney's comments regarding the "backyard breeder" or the family who wants the kids to see the birth of puppies...it's exactly THOSE kinds of people along with the commercial breeders that contribute to the overwhelming pet population. Little Joey sits on 71st street to sell the puppies to pad the pockets of mom and dad. Meanwhile, puppies go home with unprepared families who pulled up to a stoplight, saw some dogs and decided to buy one! Folks, there are so many DOGS and CATS at PetsMart that need homes...and guess what, they're cheaper, they come with updated shot records, heartworm treatments and are spayed/neutered so that YOU won't further contribute to the pet problem. All of my pets are fixed, I'm not a breeder, I don't need my kids to watch "the miracle of birth" in person, I don't show my dogs and I'm not even sure if they are the best examples of their breeds both health-wise and look wise. So why wouldn't I fix them? I am not against organized, regulated dog breeding....I think that it should be monitored. I'm not sure if the USDA is exactly the right organization to monitor the pet industry, but I desperately believe that someone needs to speak for the animals....I agree that breeders should be the voice for the regulations, but I think the true definition of breeder needs to be thoroughly thought out. I'm not sure that Joe Schmoe should be considered a compasionate, educated breeder because he has 10 different breeds of dogs that spit out hundreds of puppies each year...he's exactly the sort of person that needs to be booted out!

hate puppy mills, tulsa (10/23/2007 10:36:02 AM)

Could anything make Oklahoma more white trash than a bunch of dogs all in one pin barely getting fed. I am so tired of people making money off of poor animals. If you cant afford to take GOOD care if your pets then DONT get them.

rocky rococo, stillwater (10/25/2007 10:30:05 AM)

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

ME, (10/25/2007 10:56:51 AM)

Rocky, my guess would be that she is far more informed then most understand.

1) TW's captions under the photos already state that they violate the law as it is already written, no need for new law, better enforcement maybe.

2) Video was supplied by the companion animal protection society, one story gives a link to their website, go read it!!!

3) Any legislation will have a far reaching effect on breeds not registered with AKC. This will affect all working breeds also, not just the cute lap dogs.

The PA bill would have put birddog trainers out of business, because running/exercising a dog for 2hrs in the grouse woods did not meet the exercise requirment put forth in the bill. The dogs had to be walked on a leash for 20min each day.

This is a veiled attempt by AR to get a foothold in this state. Enforce the laws on the books, and close down the puppy mills. we really don't need the government to save us from ourselves do we?

Think outside YOUR box people, it is a big world out there.

rocky rococo, (10/26/2007 2:14:01 AM)

Yeah, those AR Blue Meanies can get footholds right under your bed.

Since you're talking video, a super one to see is the one put out by KOTV News on 6 and their interview with Ruth Steinberger of Oklahoma Alliance for Animals. All it takes is

a KOTV excursion to their website.

Susan, (10/26/2007 8:23:45 AM)

If your dog sleeps under your bed, you may be more right than you think, for all your sarcasm, rocky.

There, was that short enough for you? ;o)

Vic, Dallas (2/24/2008 7:25:37 PM)

Susan,

Sorry, but you're wrong about where "police dogs" come from, at least some of them. Dallas area has a program now that coordinates with adjoining city animal control facilities and trains shelter employees to spot dogs for not only police work, but bomb sniffing, drug sniffing, and just about any other public service work a dog could do, including serving time assisting troops in Iraq.

On top of that, there are lots and lots of individuals here who rescue on their own, at their own expense. Why doesn't my home state have a program like this or more people who have a heart?

Too many hillbilly neighbors trying to profit off neglected animals. I'm from there, I spent about half my life there and I got a college education, but you know what? I had to work 3 jobs and I was still hungry. Teachers made very, very little for what they go through to earn a degree when I left. Truth is, the economy was bad in Oklahoma, and it still is, and people who can't get ahead of their bills do whatever they can to make a buck, or they leave (like I did).

As for why the economy is bad, that would be due to some of idiotic laws that have been passed, and more due to some that should have, but weren't. However, it's all water under the bridge. As long as the people who make & pass the laws remain the way they are, there will be puppy mills in Oklahoma. All the reasons you listed to justify raising dogs are what any puppy miller would use dishonestly to keep the people who would make sure dogs are treated humanely away.

People who can't afford liability insurance shouldn't raise dogs. With the number that are killed in animal control facilities every year equaling what are born, it should tell you the problem is not being addressed by people breeding more puppies, registered or not, in humane conditions or not. Find a different way to make money and contribute to the elimination of the problem instead of adding to it.

L.R., Stillwater (10/24/2007 3:11:26 PM)

Why is it that many back yard breeders will meet you halfway with a puppy? Are they ashamed to have you come to their "Kennel"? If everyone who thinks we need stronger laws and better inspections, write your state legislature and voice your opinion. Until they know what the people want, they probably won't do anything unless some legislator has his own agenda. I got my dog at a rescue and the stories they tell and pictures they show about puppy mills is so sad and horrendous. It is got to stop. I'm writing my local representative. Are you?

Joe, Tulsa (10/24/2007 3:14:14 PM)

Mike, I looked at your post and either you have poor command of the language or your real feelings slipped out and now you are trying desperately to cover up you slip. I don't think it was a misprint.

Being politically correct is nothing more than a cowards comment to make other people feel inferior. You are not the politically correct police, besides anyone who goes through life trying to be politically correct is really lacking in moral and ethical substance. It takes guts to stand up for what we believe in. Just because everyone is jumping off a cliff does that mean to be politically correct I have to do so as well?

Buddy I don't think so..

Now back to your comment about breeders, That is nonsense. You have no idea how difficult it is to run a successful kennel. Without question there are poorly run facilities not just in Oklahoma but a lot of places, Take a visit to our neighbor to the south, it's like the wild wild west down there in Texas. Kind of like Oklahoma no state licensing program etc.

I think you will find most breeders are good guys, a few are not so good. But the entire problem of animal control issues are not central and owned solely by the breeders.

Regulation.. Regulation.. Regulation

Is the drum beat we hear but what about Education? If you truly want to change the hearts and minds of men and women it is done through education.

The problems are extensive in scope and in nature and I can assure you the AR people do not have the answers. We cannot legislate honesty or morals or ethical conduct by people. We cannot guarantee that any person much more an animal will have a flawless life in living conditions or in health.

We can improve on present conditions, but only through efforts that are done collectively by the people who are involved in each respective venue of the industry.

Yes it is an industry and without the breeders America would not have the millions of dogs that are wonderful companions and best friends for animal lovers of all kinds.

Without the breeders you would not be able to afford a dog, America is one of the few countries in the world you can buy a dog of your choice of breed easily and affordable.

And, If you had a dog as a child more than likely it came from a breeder somewhere in it's family tree.

Being from Oklahoma, having grown up in Tulsa

I am hopeful the good people of Oklahoma will move forward and improve conditions throughout the state in all aspects of animal ownership.

And by the way, I am a breeder and I have served as President of one of the oldest and prestigious breeder organizations in the United States. I have provided input in the development of legislative matters in several state and federal issues. In my years in business I have never had one demerit on any USDA, State or AKC Inspection and I live in the most regulated and inspected state in the United States. And by the way I am A Vietnam Vet.

You are a MILLER!!, Tulsa (10/24/2007 7:08:57 PM)

Susan...it may be time to check your blood pressure! It is very easy..just open your mouth and say it "I AM A MILLER". You are and you know you are so quit acting as if you are not.

I agree no one wants to read your novels on "how to disguise you're a puppy miller"

D - foster home, Owasso (10/24/2007 10:57:24 PM)

For those of you that are freaking out over the TW printing this article and making money from advertisements; surely you've heard of the first amendment. For those of you that are actually interested in the above novel and Joe's rendition of how wonderful he is, forget about it. My advice to everyone is: 1)Don't buy a dog or cat from a breeder, pet store, Internet sales, TW advertisement or neighborhood Walmart 2)Adopt a pet from a local rescue 3)Tag your pet so if it happens to get misplaced, someone will know where to return it 4)If you are feeling generous, please remember animal rescues could always use some extra cash

So Obvious, (10/25/2007 8:01:28 AM)

Joe = Susan. The elaborate over use of words to get a point across are so alike in the posts. Susan knows she is guilty so decided to post as a man named Joe.

Susan, (10/25/2007 9:33:38 AM)

No, I am not Joe, I can speak for myself, thank you very much. And have done so already, as others have noted, more than they wanted to hear. And for those incessantly accusing me of being a "miller," you are the ones who are painfully funny. No, actually you are not; because you are trying to discredit the TRUTH by tainting the messenger. Let me know how that works for you. It is sad though, because it removes this from debate between intelligent people over a serious issue, to a childish name-calling contest. Nobody wins in that scenario, people.

As for the puppy mill debate, none of you really get this, do you? Here, let me put this in simpler terms, which seems to be all that some of you are capable of.

There have been police around for all of my life. Before I was born, in fact. They've been arresting, and jailing, people for breaking the law all that time. So, how come all the criminals aren't in jail yet? Why do we still keep paying these police; aren't the laws WORKING??

Duhh....

I will say this again, slowly, and I'll use SMALL words so you will get it. Maybe, this time: There. Are. Already. Laws. On. The. Books. That. Make. Running. A. Puppy. Mill. Illegal.

Yes, folks it is already against the law to abuse and neglect animals. People get arrested and jailed for it all the time! And yet, there are still mills around. Do you think that passing new laws will make them go away? Tell me, how well has that worked so far for any *other* criminal behavior, like drug abuse, or theft, or what have you?

Let me put this another way. Puppy mills are AWFUL, right? Really awful, and those millers, why they are really disgusting people. I agree. However, are they as disgusting as, say, a rapist? How does a rapist stack up against a 'miller'? Or, let's say, child molestation. Or, oooo! how about murder? is a murderer worse than a puppy miller? And yet, there are a LOT more people committing murder, and child abuse, and rape, than there are running puppy mills. Do we have laws on the books against these crimes? Well, yeah. So, do you think that drafting MORE laws to make them MORE illegal is going to stem the tide?

Duhhh...

I know! Let's start a new government office and make all these rapists and child abusers and murders get a LICENSE so we can track them better. I'm just sure that will help the situation, how about you? And, I'm sure that no one ELSE will ever murder or rape or abuse children again unless they run out and get the necessary paperwork first...

NOW do you get it?

Puppy mills, like theft and drug abuse and any number of sad situations, are a *fact of life.* They are a criminal enterprise, and there are many reasons why they come about, but the bottom line is that like any other criminal enterprise, they will forever be crawling out of the woodwork, and we will forever have to be putting them down. Writing laws that hurt honest people will not stop them. All it will do is hurt innocents.

That is about all that can be said on the matter. The rest is up to you. You can believe the hyperbole and hysteria drummed up by the press, or you can do a little research and try to figure out what you are being sold here. Your choice.

Mike, Tulsa (10/24/2007 9:40:00 AM)

Wow, well many people clearly do not know about the PAWS bill, that recently came and went. That is what Susan is referring to. Jeff and Clifford you can learn more by googling the term "PAWS Bill". You'll get an eyefull. It was a law that was "supposed" to reel in puppymills, but it wasn't about that at all. It was a law that would have abolished "hobby breeders" all together, and people who do animal rescue.

It was presented as a "puppymill" law. However, only commercial breeders would have been able to meet the requirements, so strangely enough it was anything but a puppymill law. It was fought tooth and nail, by national rescue groups, hobby breeders and numerous dog clubs. It was actually about money, and more specifically microchips. Also the AKC stood to make millions on the bill, therefore supported it despite the huge protest of the clubs own members.

Read up on the Bill, if you want to see what government involvement would be like. By the way, here's something you may not know. The federal government set up many disabled Vietnam veterans as dog breeders during the 1970's, as a way to avoid paying them disability. Strangely enough, those men went from one politically incorrect job to another.

That group of people are aging out and retiring, by the time they get around to enforcing laws about it, the issue may not even be around. It will effect everyone else though, and it can't be taken back once enforced. Read up on it then decide if that's a good idea or not.

Joe, Tulsa (10/24/2007 11:09:59 AM)

This debate is exactly the point I was making earlier.

On one side you have people who breed animals for all sorts of reasons, then Throw in a few AR extremists and a few poorly educated people who will believe anything and you have the works for a firefight.

A fight in which there is no end.

Everyone is always trying to put their best face forward wanting others to think their cause is better or more wholesome than the other guys.

First and foremost we must understand we are Americans and we as Americans have rights. Just because you disagree does not automatically give you the right to disrupt the efforts of others. Actually When it comes to a point of law, any activity which an be construed to interrupt, harm or damage a person engaged in raising animals of any kind. Is a violation of the Patriot Act, under the provisions of terror. Even these articles by the TW if determined to be threatening or harmful, or cause others to act in threatening manner to anyone involved in the raising of animals Those people can be arrested and face long terms of imprisonment.

Mr. Gillham may be filing his next series from Leavenworth Kansas

With this being said, the US Government is protecting all breeders good and bad from the crazies of the world.

On the points of what is good and what is bad, the USDA and the individual states set

the rules for animal health and animal care in these environments. Changes to the conditions or operations, standards etc. must be done legally, however isolation of one group from another is inappropriate and bad legislation.

Any efforts to regulate will require untold millions of dollars in revenue. With Oklahoma's attitude towards taxation, and the lack of a of another highway to convert into a toll road it is doubtful Oklahoma has the willingness to accept the burden of this cost.

Which brings us back to the basis of the subject at hand. Companion animals:

Without exception there are areas that can be improved on in the animal care industry. But the same can be said for Oklahoma's Restaurants... But we don't expect the State to step up and create a department or division to chase away bad food..

The point I am making here is in American, any business survives on the merits of its product. The bad breeders, like bad restaurants simply go out of business, it happens everyday. In both cases we see similar conditions, poorly maintained facilities and lots stuff that needs to be auctioned or junked, In the breeding business we see the same except the leavings of the business is in animals, and being a society that loves our animals this is heartbreaking and angers even the most stout of heart.

So what is the answer to all the issues presented? Remember there are several issues

that are much more far reaching than a animal breeder. We have individuals that abuse and abandon their pets once they have gotten big and no longer cute.

We have people who raise dogs just to see the miracle of life..

We have so called shelters that slaughter thousand of dogs, and we call it Humane?

We have Rescues that under closer review we find they are nothing more than a cheap pet shop operation, taking advantage of the public in the placement of inferior damaged goods. But since they are damaged and they tell you up front somehow it's ok. So when buffy bites your child in the face, it's ok you knew the pup came from a bad home...

We have people who are involved in what we call the "Fancy" Show people, who as a matter of routine use animal husbandry practice that are as barbaric and cruel. These practices often create genetic defective animals who are not fit and ultimately end up as someones pet, They keep the successfully bred dogs and who do you suppose ends up with the so called "Pet Quality dogs"?

We have pet stores who buy their inventory outside of the main stream supply system, as established by the USDA, which in-turn creates a problem for the unsu

Joe, Tulsa (10/24/2007 11:26:17 AM)

Mike you piece of trash! How dare you attack or vets. This may be about breeding dogs but to call our America Heros and Service men and Women Politically incorrect has crossed the line as far as I am concerned.

Just who in the hell do you think are anyway?

Kreg, (10/24/2007 11:43:07 AM)

You buy a new car from a new car dealer, you buy a new tv from an electronics store, etc. You should buy a new puppy from a LICENSED breeder if there is such a thing. Not some "hobby breeder", a.k.a puppy mill, etc.

Mike, Tulsa (10/24/2007 1:04:23 PM)

To Joe, you misunderstood what I was saying. I did NOT attack Vietnam Veterans. The Federal government offered a program and then provided funding for a few or some (certainly not ALL) returning disabled Vietnam Vets to start dog breeding businesses. It was a way to help them start their own businesees. This was during the 1970's and commercials breeders were mostly unheard of at that time.

So my point was that SOME of the commercial breeders may be Vietnam vets, who started out in that program a long time ago. Or NOT, I have no idea how many vets even signed up for it, or if they did how long it worked. Maybe after a few years the whole thing was a total bust.

I am NOT discounting Vietnam vets in any way, shape or form. I am a veteran myself, how stupid do you think I am?

Many or most commercial dog breeders probably have nothing to do with Vietnam or being veterans at all.

Again, my ONLY point was our own government funded this program, and most people do not KNOW it ever existed. How it worked, or how many vets actually signed up and received the funding, etc. etc. I have NO idea. Maybe after a few years the whole thing was a total bust, but it happened. Maybe NOBODY signed up for it at all.

It is NOT polically correct to be a dog breeder, and one finds themself constantly defending against AR groups, etc. It's just not popular. Don't worry, we'll have all kinds of laws in place to regulate it before long.

Lynn, Inola (10/24/2007 2:17:29 PM)

This series of articles has been a tremendous education to the uninformed pet buyer. As a former breeder myself, I admire your willingness to step out on the edge to present this side of the story.

As many have pointed out, there are many more good breeders than so-called puppy mills. The bottom line is that the surplus of pets is from the high volume mills, not the breeders, and these articles focus on those mills.

Just a note to the writer who was concerned that rescue groups 'sell' pets. The money to keep rescue groups afloat comes from fund raisers and donations, often scraped up from the pockets of the overworked volunteers. Something I recently learned first hand, the adoption fee barely puts a dent in the cost of the animal.

Thanks for covering this much needed topic