Eric, Pryor (11/13/2007 4:52:35 AM)

HAHA. I have only been to ORU once and had a weird feeling the whole three days that I was there.

The Oracle, Tulsa (11/13/2007 5:17:57 AM)

Billy Joe is an expert at begging for donations.Wonder where he learned the techniques and words to say?

Carl Robbins, San Jose (11/13/2007 5:19:30 AM)

ORU INDEPENDENT, SEPARATE --

OR A 'HOUSE LAPDOG" OF ORM /OREA ?

The legal answer to that question will be determined in court.

The amended complaint asks the court to allow ORM / OREA and its board to be named as defendents in the ORU action to fire the professors on the grounds that ORM /OREA effectively controls ORU.

If the court agrees, the legal ruling should put an end to the fiction that ORU is separate and independent from ORM / OREA control.

I'm sure the accreditation team is also looking at that question -- who really controls ORU?

You can't keep iron-clad family control -- and deny it, too.

-- opinion from outside the bubble

Bill, Tulsa (11/13/2007 5:23:54 AM)

Wonder if the condition of the dorms which gets worse each year while all of LR releatives have jobs and houses provided for had anything to do with the return visit

~sojourner, Adair (11/13/2007 6:32:16 AM)

KENNETH COPELAND******

"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne...Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption."

Kenneth Copeland (Jesus -- Our Lord of Glory, Believer's Voice of Victory Magazine 10, 4; April 1982, p. 3)

-

"He [Jesus] is suffering all that there is to suffer. There is no suffering left apart from Him. His emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing [hell]. And the Devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."

Kenneth Copeland (Believer's Voice of Victory program, April 21, 1991)

-

"The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?' You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, 'Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there -- the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole?' And the Lord said, 'Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.' He said, 'I accepted, in My own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off."

Kenneth Copeland (What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, 1990, audiotape #02-0017, side 2)

-

"How did Jesus then on the cross say, 'My God.' Because God was not His Father any more. He took upon Himself the nature of Satan. And I'm telling you Jesus is in the middle of that pit. He's suffering all that there is to suffer, there is no suffering left . . . apart from Him. His emaciated, little wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing and the devil thinks He's got Him destroyed. But, all of a sudden God started talking."

Kenneth Copeland (Believer's Voice of Victory, TBN, April 21, 1991

______________________________________________________________

"It is finished" ~~ JESUS John 19:30

______________________________________________________________

Who are you going to believe?

Floridadude, (11/13/2007 6:46:11 AM)

ORU is a landmark university for Tulsa and it is funny how people who actually live in Tulsa can sit there on their butts and pass judgement. If it was TU having those same problems (also a private University) would they be saying the same? I am sure TU has debt as well. As a former emmployee of ORU years ago,while mistakes have been made, the students who attend there are trying to get a education. How do you think they feel people condemning their university and the sweat and money their parents and themselves have poured into getting a education. I think some people need to just shut up and let the legal system take it's course . Are all of you holier than thou? Good grief Eveyone is a expert or think they know so much.

~sojourner, Adair (11/13/2007 6:48:26 AM)

If anybody believes that Jesus EVER accepted the sin nature or satan into His own Spirit (The Holy Ghost) that person is sorely misled! Jesus' light has never been turned off, not for one second that's impossible, not to mention rediculous! Jesus' Spirit was never "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy". The Bible says Jesus went to hell and retrieved the keys to death and hell. The victory was already completed on the cross! Entirely!! When Jesus said "It is finished", you better know He was not lying, it was finished. He descended to hell VICTORIOUS, and retrieved the keys to death and hell. Saying anything else is adding to the Word of God, and that's heresy, strictly forbidden, and comes with a dire warning for people who do that! The End.

Hey:, (11/13/2007 7:18:29 AM)

sojourner: Thank you for posting that

about Ken Copeland. I got so infuriated

when I read he said our Jesus had a

wormy little spirit. And I disagree with

some other things he said. And I

appreciate post. #7. Good preaching.

Sounds like you believe like I do,

Our Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of

Lords.

Former ORU Prof and Alum, NC (11/13/2007 7:20:47 AM)

Accreditation agencies are scared to death of debt. The last thing they want is for a fully accredited school to close when they hadn't raised concerns about debt. They have been known to pull the accreditation of schools with much smaller debt loads. A debt of $50 million cripples the school's ability to support its educational programs. And for the students -- no accreditation = no federal loan guarantees, no Pell Grants, and no federal scholarship assistance of any kind.

I hear the nails being driven into the ORU coffin. It is sad that the greed and megalomania of a few will destroy the livelihoods and futures of many.

Elizabeth Conley, Norfolk (11/13/2007 7:26:16 AM)

It's very good to know the accreditation team wants to approve ORU. It's also good to see they are willing to give ORU the time and space it needs to fix the fiscal mismanagement issues.

Hopefully ORU will pick a well qualified academic scholar with leadership ability to be President of the University. That would go a long way towards correcting their problems.

It may be hard for the flamboyant evangelical leaders to connect with academia, but they need to find someone who can help them make a better interface than R. Roberts did.

Elizabeth Conley, Norfolk (11/13/2007 7:29:55 AM)

9. 11/13/2007 7:20:47 AM, Former ORU Prof and Alum, NC

Do you really think ORU will lose accreditation? I've been hopeful from the beginning that the Roberts and the board would find humility first.

Is the leadership of ORU too unbending and unteachable for that? How bad is it? Why?

MO Alum, (11/13/2007 7:32:12 AM)

News Flash! ORU ACREDIDATION IS RENEWED AND ITS PRESIDENT IS THE LOWEST PAID DIV I PRESIDENTS IN OK.

This would be an incomplete but accurate head line. It demonstrates the power of point of view. In the ORU situation it's important to remember that all of us bring a bias to the table. We must consciously refrain from judgment until we know the facts and respect that fact that other don't see things our way.

I posted some weeks ago that 300k for a college president is not excessive. Thank you to the TW and the AP for confirming this yesterday. AP articles have appeared in a number of city news papers showing the average for public and private institution presidents are all higher than RR's reported compensation. I'm not discussing LR's compensation. I don't know what co-hosts of religious programs should be paid.

ORU has issues but it's important to separate the real from peoples objection to to the Charismatic/Faith message. Car washes and family vacations are not the problem at ORU. Lack of accountability for performance, autocratic leadership, divided vision, no tolerance of criticism, disrespect of faculty, and no apparent understanding of how to correctly fund and run a University are all serious issues. Lets move past the theology debate to address some of these issues. Respectfully from an ORU supporter seeking change.

Machiavelli, Houston (11/13/2007 7:36:00 AM)

#6 Floridadude. There certainly have been some very ugly, personal attacks on these blogs, and also a lot of worthless, irrelevant comments, but your argument is not really valid. Just think about this - suppose a murderer has a disabled wife and ten children. Justice for this man means that eleven innocents will suffer. That's just how it is! That's actually part of the injustice. If any part of these horrible stories about the ORU leadership are true, another facet of the perceived super-selfishness is that they DIDN'T foresee the consequences for innocent people (students, parents, faculty, staff) who put their faith in them! That's my opinion, anyway. I'm not emotionally involved in this story, but I have great interest because of the content. And I'm not from Tulsa, I can't share that with you, but I certainly believe Tulsa can live beyond whatever results from these investigations/lawsuits, etc.

Elizabeth Conley, Norfolk (11/13/2007 7:36:56 AM)

Everything I've seen points to ORU being a school with excellent professors and students. Their academic standards seem to be top notch. The campus seems to be a safe and wholesome place.

I don't agree with the "Chicken Coop" mentality that ORU employs to micro manage the student body. The parents and students must, or they wouldn't farm their little darlings out there. It's a free country, so I don't see a problem with it. I may be a little nervous about drinking the cool aid, but plenty of other Christians dig that kind of atmosphere.

It's a good school. I continue to pray ORU will recover from this debacle.

OHMYGOSH, (11/13/2007 7:41:28 AM)

I just hope the students and parents have their eyes open enough at this time to consider transferring to another school. Unfortunately, I have always heard "collective snickers" when someone says they graduated from ORU (not to the person's face, of course). Why on earth would anyone want to pay the steep tuition at ORU and possibly be saddled with that debt upon graduation only to find you can't get a job because your diploma is from ORU? Even if they find a way to eliminate the debt, any shred of credibility the school may have had in the past is gone....gone...gone.

-

Don't gamble with your future career opportunites by staying on this sinking ship.

Norris Streetman, Tulsa (11/13/2007 7:43:29 AM)

People always want more....its the nature of the beast. Most people tell white lies to protect them selves and others. MOst people want good things to happen to other people....People who have nothing usually want what others have. And I believe it is time everyone pays taxes. Including churches, schools, everyone why should it be different for a few.....If they were accountable to the tax man this will continue to be in the for front of headlines. So far, have these non profits have a changed in your community......still there is crime and in Tulsa it is up.......still there is social injustice. Still if one person would donate their own time and money directly to that cause with not looking for that tax break I think the true nature of giving would grow and things would change

Machiavelli, Houston (11/13/2007 7:44:35 AM)

As for Richard Roberts' salary as President, to me that's never been the issue. To me the real story is whether or not it can be proved that the Roberts' family have an attitude of "it's my/our University," even "it's my/our ministry." This is so unChristlike!

However, if ORU is separated from OREA and becomes purely a University, that won't mean that all injustice will stop, it certainly won't put an end to selfishness and egomania, but it will take power away from a single man/family. Injustice will be dished out by a "board," "committee," etc. So be it!

Actually, I'm impressed that ORU has so many fine academic faculty/staff, because undereducated evangelists trying to supervise, manage, or control well-educated people just doesn't work!

Elizabeth Conley, Norfolk (11/13/2007 7:50:41 AM)

15. 11/13/2007 7:41:28 AM, OHMYGOSH,

Two years gives people time to either finish or jump ship. If you're at the end of your sophmore year, you can easily transfer to another college. If you're past the halfway point, you can finish up and get a job. After the first job or two, your job performance means more than where you got your shingle.

I don't think ORU's students or professors have been tainted by this, only the top leadership. There's no reason to think an ORU degree is worthless - far from it.

We should all pray the leaders pull themselves together and do the right thing by these students. I gotta admit, I wouldn't be willing to risk 60 thou in tuition on their ability to keep their accreditation past two years. Not the way they're behaving right now.

MO Alum, (11/13/2007 7:53:33 AM)

Mach, I agree it's not the Roberts University and it shouldn't be run like it is. An interesting and pertinent issue would be to compare prof salaries to the national average as well. RR is not overpaid but the faculty is certainly underpaid. Except for those closest to the core. This is a common problem in ministries. Universities need to have a overall compensation structure and plan that applies to everyone. Not one that's based on what the President thinks is fair. Also, don't assume the evangelists are all stupid. Some of these people John Hagee for instance are quite bright.

Elizabeth Conley, Norfolk (11/13/2007 7:56:05 AM)

17. 11/13/2007 7:44:35 AM, Machiavelli, Houston

Actually, I'm impressed that ORU has so many fine academic faculty/staff, because undereducated evangelists trying to supervise, manage, or control well-educated people just doesn't work!

Yep. Televangelists are used to manipulating undeducated people through emotion. It doesn't work with educated Christians. The professors of ORU are an impressively long suffering lot.

Elizabeth Conley, Norfolk (11/13/2007 7:59:01 AM)

undeducated! Too funny!

1983 , fort worth (11/13/2007 7:59:36 AM)

I'm sure most people have already noticed that there are two kinds of people, ones that will support O.R.U. and those that are always on the attack. Well, this current topic is no different than any other allegation, innocent until proven guilty. As for the "non-supporters" of O.R.U., just remember to judge fairly and know the law. Telling people to transfer, come on, O.R.U. will always be a top liberal arts university that graduates top men and women prepared for the career fields that they have chosen. I made the most of my education while at O.R.U. and trusted God and not in Man, presidents, or "non-supporters". I retired a millionaire at 40, not bragging, just encouraging O.R.U. prospective students that you can make whatever you want out of this situation, but I encourage you to listen to the facts when they come out. The Board of Regents will do the right thing with the administration, and the school will live on and continue to thrive, because the foundation does not consist of what the Roberts family does, but rather on the integrity of the Word of God, i.e. the Bible, and the integrity of the Board of Regents.

Joe-Allen Doty, Tulsa, Oklahoma (11/13/2007 8:06:32 AM)

--A final decision won't be made for six months, (John) Taylor (a commission director overseeing the process) said Monday.

"The review process has several more steps to it, so there is no official word at this time," Taylor said.--

. . . As far as ORU maintaining its accreditation, I think that is possible and I certainly have no problem with that if things are like it was when I went to ORU during the 3rd quarter of the 1970s.

. . . All of the adjunct professors and the full-professors teaching the courses which I took were more than fully qualified. Of course, while some with the MA degrees might have earned a BA from ORU, their advanced degrees were earned at well-known institutions of higher learning and not a one of those places was Charismatic or Pentecostal in their doctrines.

--

While $300k might not be excessive for a college/university president, it might be too much in regard to the head of a Christian institution who is also supposed to an ordained minister. So, a preacher's salary is a different matter, in my opinion, especially if he does not have to pay for any of his housing, his living expenses or his transportation expenses.

. . . I am sticking to supporting the original purpose of Oral Roberts University and its original mission. But, those in leadership of it now need to return it to its original mission, too.

OHMYGOSH, (11/13/2007 8:08:07 AM)

#15 Elizabeth--good, valid points. Keep in mind that many ORU credits won't transfer to other universities. At one time I "supervised" student interns from THREE (3) different departments at ORU. The professionalism, knowledge and reliability of students from all THREE departments was far below the interns from other universities. One department's students were so bad that the agency told them we would take no more of their students. While this does not include the whole student population---it was a pretty good random sampling. The inferior performance of these students stood in stark contrast to the ones from the other schools.

-

Yes, the administration is a problem but so is the education from and reputation of the school.

Carl Robbins, San Jose (11/13/2007 8:18:56 AM)

MO alum Post 19

A. There's no way Oral will let ORU be anything than effectively controlled by the Roberts aamily -- whatever the window-dressing.

B. POST 15 -- those snickers will turn to guffaws. Anyone who things the OR / ORU scandal will not effect how people see degrees is out of touch with reality.

It's not right, and there are some highly competent grads, but they bear the mark of Cain, and the taint attached to the name OR.

And it's not that TV evangelists aren;t smart -- well, let's say, clever -- but they inhabit a world the polar opposite of academia. They need to be off the BofR.

Lord knows, they have enough kindred problems of their own.

Anyone who sees "reformists" in Hinn, Dollar and Coepland -- and his son-in-law Pearson -- well, they believe in the tooth fairy.

PLAN OF SALVATION FOR ORU

-- New, respected president

-- New B or Ref

-- New name

Anything short of that is re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

-- opinion from outside the bubble