OH PUH-LEASE, (11/27/2007 1:55:16 AM)

''I do not believe the ministry and the university should be separated. The ministry is the primary funding source of the university. Besides, I believe you would be going against God's will if you tried to separate the two,'' Duane Collins said.

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I seriously doubt that separating ORU from ORM is one of God's top priorities. Stop drinking the Kool-aid!

OH PUH-LEASE: Take 2!, (11/27/2007 1:58:24 AM)

I seriously doubt whether separating ORU from ORM is one of God's top priorities. Stop drinking the Kool-aid! Separating ORU and ORM is the healthiest thing ORU can do.

Time for a Black Man to Run ORU, (11/27/2007 1:59:43 AM)

I say that Carlton Pearson or Rhae Buckley, Alumni Board chairman, or Dean Boyd all are exceptional Black men that could run the University.

I say the day of the poop-kick'in good ol boys is over.

MO Alum, (11/27/2007 4:43:45 AM)

Businessmen and educators both have proven proven track records of fund raising at almost every successful college. I don't understand why people think they can't raise funds at ORU. Pastors/Ministers can be sucessful but they need connections to the business community, which is where the money will come from. You will not grow the endowment with $20 or $30/month partnership programs and seed faith gifts. That's how you pay for a TV ministry. Oral was unique. He was the first and stood alone at the top of the small group of television ministries in the 1960's and 70's (his peak years of infulence). However, today the field is very crowded and it's much harder for ORU to tap into evagelical families for the type of funds they need. I would say inpossible. Only wealthy friends of the University have the resources to establish and fund a new University economic model through estates and major gifts. The next head of the University should be someone who will best be able to motivate them to give.

You split OREA and ORU if you belive thats whats best for the school. I don't if it is. I have mixed feelings. Pray for the BOR they actually have to make this decision.

Midwest, (11/27/2007 4:58:15 AM)

3. 11/27/2007 1:59:43 AM, Time for a Black Man to Run ORU, ..........

-------

--Let's first list the qualifications.

--The qualifications should be the same as for an elder or leader as outlined in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.

fifteen characteristics:

1. Above reproach: he is one who “can’t be censored” ; there is nothing in his life for which to accuse him.

2. He must be faithful to his wife. Preferably never divorced and remarried unless exceptional circumstances.

3. Temperate: he is sober in judgment.

4. Prudent: he is discreet, sound-minded.

5. Respectable: he is well balanced, not abrasive.

6. Hospitable: he loves and hosts strangers.

7. Able to teach: he discerns and communicates sound doctrine.

8. Not addicted to drinking.

9. Not combative in nature; not belligerent.

10. Gentle: he is reasonable.

11. Uncontentious: he avoids fighting.

12 No lover of money: he is not greedy or irresponsible concerning money. He must not be dishonest with money.

13. He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him.

14. Not a new Christian.

15. Good reputation with unbelievers: he is respected in the community at large.

Larry2, Tulsa (11/27/2007 5:13:40 AM)

I have noticed recently on Hour of Healing they are asking that donations be to Oral Roberts Ministries. I don't watch the program much so that may not be something new. It would be great to know how much ORM funnels to ORU anually.

ORU Alum, Jenks, OK (11/28/2007 3:05:16 PM)

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carl R has never done, and will never do anything (baring a big change of heart) to help ORU.

Lots of change is needed, but I would take Richard R, over Carl R anyday.

ORU Alum, Jenks, OK (11/28/2007 3:22:37 PM)

Doctor Bulldog, you can't even keep your facts straight, I guess we have to ask you to resign from this blog.

It was a 900 foot Jesus. Come on man! Get with the program. Make your ramblings somewhat credible, or stop wasting our time.

Just wait until you get to Heaven, I hope you will, Carlton Pearson is sure you will, are you sure you will?

Then let's see you try to describe how big God is. Uh-oh!

ORU Alum, Jenks, OK (11/28/2007 3:50:09 PM)

Before I go, one last thought about the ORM/ORU split. Can they each survive without out each other? Sure.

Do they need to split? No!

If they can't operate with full transperancy together, they won't operate with full transparency simply because they part. No gain in a seperation.

If they change their ways, then they can survive together. Gain is only made in transparency. So if you don't think RR or OR can change, then I will grant you your opinion. I think they can change. I think they could have gone on and ORU and ORM could have become transparent and responsible. (Even though it has not been in the past, no argument there)

Do I care that ORU needs to subsidize the Ministry at times. NO!

That is like me not wanting to take care of my parents when they hit 80 or 90 and can't take care of themselves at times. Should I say sorry Mom and Dad. You sacrificed for years to feed me, clothe me, take care of me. Now too bad, I don't need you. If fact Dad, you are really a drain on my finances. I met this Doctor, I think his name is Kavorkian, someting like that. He really likes working with seniors, give him a call.

If you don't like that idea, then how about this. ORM pays for TV time, then during TV time ORM fundraises for ORU. Scholarships, mattresses, heating/cooling, mattresses, Adopt a Student, mattresses. ORM receives checks for ORU, gives money to ORU, not ORM. So, you are OK with ORM giving money to ORU, just not ORU giving money to ORM. How kind of you. Your mom and dad must have loved getting your letters from college.

So ORM pays (expense) for air time.

ORU receives (revenue) for donation. This might be a reason for the deficit at ORM. Maybe? If the ministry was down 1.5 Million (not a good thing), how much did they contribute to ORU's fundraising? Was it less than this? More then this? If more, maybe you owe ORM an apology.

Back to the beginning though, they should be able to live on their own. But I don't want to pretend that ORM is only a drain and forget that ORU would not exist without ORM/OREA.

Also, Carl R., Richard did not create the debt. No, he was not able to pull out from under it. (70 million would have helped) With the 70 million even he would have been breaking even, in fact he would have been making a profit over the last 15 years, if he didn't have the debt payments.

NOW - CARL R - JUST FOR FUN, I would like to see you name a replacement and watch them try to dig out from under 50 Million and a 2.2 Million square foot building that is partially unfinished. It would make a nice reality show on FOX. Is Donald Trump working on his next Apprentice after the Celebrity one?

Can we have "THE PRESIDENT". Trump donates 20 Million for the Student Center and we let him hire the new president. We give him a list of 10 acceptable candidates. (We will even let the Faculty pick a couple for fun) Then watch them battle it out on T.V.

There we go, Debt paid, Student Center built, New president in place - hired by an unbiased source, and National coverage of the Univeristy for a couple months. All in favor say "Your Hired"

Wes, Cleveland, Tennessee (11/27/2007 7:52:09 PM)

Why was Carlton Person a Regent Board member of ORU ? In all the interviews I have seen on TV etc he did NOT graduate with a degree from ORU. SO my question why is a person over an institution of higher learning and he like Oral Roberts himself has NO degree. That is the way these people have operated for years. THEIR OWN WAY !!!

Doctor Bulldog, somewhere in Texas (11/27/2007 8:14:24 PM)

This is the kind of thing that happens when "ministers" establish "ministries" on the foundation that "We will not correct one another."

Oral Roberts needed correction thirty years ago. Neither he nor his son are teachable.

Oral should have SHUT his oral in the 70s.

Doctor Bulldog, somewhere in Texas (11/27/2007 8:19:54 PM)

...Hey, maybe that thirty foot Jesus can come and restore order.....

...or maybe Oral and Richard can go on TV and say that God will take them home unless this thing goes away....

I wouldn't be this cynical if they would just stand up and admit where they blew it instead of trying to whitewash it and get mad when someone doesn't want to give them a new start.

Where's the Christian integrity.... Oops... Sorry, I forgot who we were talking about.

Fifty Dollar Fine, (11/28/2007 1:46:28 AM)

"I believe you would be going against God's will if you tried to separate the two,'' said some hick named Duane Collins.

.

This ranks up there with one of the dumbest things I have ever read online. And that's saying a lot.

Fifty Dollar Fine, (11/28/2007 1:52:53 AM)

#46 Carl - "If the truth hurts, don;t read it.

Better still, deny it."

.

Or, you can do like a Roberts and rebuke it.

My Two Cents, Tulsa (11/28/2007 11:16:42 AM)

To "Let's Call A Spade A Spade" - did you really just say that the people trying to get the Robertses out of ORU is a conspiracy among gay people to get the school to be more accepting of their homosexual activities??? I guess the drug dealers want the Robertses out too so they can start selling pot out in the open (instead of secretly in dorm rooms), and the abortionists can start doing their business out in the quad. The Roberts family is shady and has been stealing from the school for years, plain and simple. They need to be removed completely if the university is ever going to be successful again.

I just feel bad for the students - I mean, who wants to say their degree is from ORU now? There will likely be a dark cloud over the students and faculty for a long time, and it's really a shame.

qqq, (11/27/2007 5:48:39 PM)

Laughs Last,

I guess I feel that Oral's informal power is so strong that he would not need official power. Someone who came after him might. I imagine something could be crafted with the right balance. The problem of Spiritual vs. Temporal power has a long history.

I've heard good things about Roberta, but I've heard so much bad about her past relationship to the Ministry and the family that I wonder if she would take the position. It might be a healing experience for all.

qqq, (11/27/2007 6:09:05 PM)

Laughs Last,

Also, it's the vindictiveness rather than the arrogance that bothers me. The best will sometimes appear arrogant. But so many tales of seemingly needless cruelty to folks with much less....

The monetary issue is partly the result of the slow failure of the Ministry. The money isn't flowing like it once did. The second and third generation were raised in it. Richard was already in his 30's in the monetary crisis of the late '80s and the daughters are too young. I don't know them, but it feels like they learned the benefits but not the obligations.

Laughs Last, (11/27/2007 6:09:35 PM)

Of course i haven't seen or heard from her in years. I think Oral has earned the right to retain some real authority, which certainly will no longer be unchecked. Billy Joe is a worthy potential successor. If espousing the "missionary position" is his worst controversy in ministry, we'll be okay. I just think that ORU can never be totally separated from Holy-Spirit-grounded ministry and stay true to its founding purpose. ORU is so different from the many other christian colleges out there. The willingness to innovate, to be different in a positive way, always set ORU apart. They say that a pioneer is known by the arrows in his back. Oral has enough of those (some self-created unfortunately, but most by virtue of ruffling religious feathers) to merit meaningful leadership until he's ready to release it. He's forgotten more about sensitivity to the Holy Spirit than most of us have experienced (and I'm no spring chicken!).

qqq, (11/27/2007 6:20:53 PM)

Laughs Last,

Since I assume you read my "arrows" quote, you probably read this too, but this is what I wrote on the other morning story today:

.

Seriously, I have a lot of sympathy for Oral, especially facing all this at this time of his life. I respect him a great deal for what he tried to do. I don't respect all the ways he used to raise money, but I compare what he tried to do with what some of the others in a similar position have done. Unfortunately, Oral's reach exceeded his grasp. All the other big pieces have gone down in flames with much suffering. ORU is the last piece. It is very late, but trying to not let it go down in flames too is what all this is about, at least for me.

It will only work if the Roberts family can be cheerleaders but not kings. They don't have the management skills. They have abused their position in numerous ways. They have lost the support of the faculty and alumni. Oral can only love ORU now by letting it go.

Laughs Last, (11/27/2007 6:39:58 PM)

Actually, I didn't see your post under the other articles or the "arrows" quote. I heard that a long time ago through another pioneer at ORU. I can't say Oral has lost the support of faculty or alumni- though no one is naive enogh to believe he can step back into any day-to-day management role. While the medical school and law school have closed, the CitiPlex may turn out to be the financial knight in shining armor that rescues the whole operation in time. By now Oral knows he can't rule anymore. And I don't think he should have to "let go" just yet. He does, however, have to work side-by-side with alumni, faculty, staff and even students to use this crisis to come out stronger. If Roberta can be brought on board, that would be great. Oral always had a saying: "Make no little plans here." And he did dream a lot bigger than even his ability to both build and then operate what he built. It's kind of like that old Seinfeld rental car episode: he knew how to take the reservation. Now we'll find out if he can HOLD the reservation and deliver the university to the next generation betterthan he left it.

qqq, (11/27/2007 6:55:16 PM)

Yes, CityPlex is the wildcard. I saw the recent article that it is now a little profitable. I don't know much about that situation. I fear it being a big drag if it goes the other way. I don't know how well it is being maintained. I assume ORU will retain ownership. There is no question that a fully occupied CityPlex would be a boon.

I don't think Oral has lost faculty support the way Richard has. Only 12 faculty voted to keep him as President. I am appalled.

The alumni giving rate that I think I got from the SelfStudy documents was 6%! Somebody quoted Princeton as 60%. That needs to change.

Machiavelli, Houston (11/27/2007 4:34:48 PM)

I have just been reviewing the IRS booklet (online) "Information for Tax-Exempt Organizations and Churches." This may not be the exact title, I went to irsDOTgov and put in "church" in the search box. It's one of the very first items to come up.

Anyway, I found the following two things especially interesting re: THe Greedy 6, three of which are ORU Regents.

1. The prohibition against unreasonable compensation to an individual is ABSOLUTE, that is, any amount above what is deemed reasonable is potential grounds for loss of tax-exempt status. Man oh boy oh girl oh woman, if the IRS can't find Benny, Joyce and Kenneth have too much compensation, I vote we petition Congress to get an entirely new IRS staff.

2. What constitutes a church is NOT DEFINED in the Internal Revenue Code. There are guidelines and court cases, etc., but no clear cut definition (well it would be hard to define definitively). However, three guidelines are:

A. Regular place of worship

B. Regular congregation

C. Sunday School for the training of children.

Man, I could take away all the TV and media ministries "church" status in a heartbeat. Does TBN have a "regular congregation"? Does TBN have a Sunday School? You tell me.

Laughs Last, (11/27/2007 4:47:55 PM)

City Plex has the potential to carry the University over the long haul. As I understand from ORU officials at the time, about seven years ago, it was actually operating at a profit. Senior administrators saw it as a potential cash cow that would pay down debt and add to the endowment. When the cancer center, a huge tenant, was lost, CitPlex revenues dropped dramatically (about 1/3 of leasable space). It will take time to replace that occupancy. With the business center of Tulsa moving further south, CitiPlex is an asset that, if aggressively managed, will continue to grow in value. Despite some of the misspending, financially the University is not in as dire straights as has been portrayed. Assuming the BOR takes the right steps to financial accountability, establishes a positive process for selection of the next president, and sets debt reduction as its highest priority along side aggressive management, marketing and development of CitiPlex, ORU can come out of this disaster true to its core mission and financially secure for the future. Separate boards yes, but separated from ministry? No. ORU is unique as a charismatic university and should never stray from that emphasis. I'm sure the legal organization was designed to make sure the two are never truly separate. And Oral is right- if they were completely separated, over time the university would most probably drift into a secular institution hardly distinctive from other bland, boring christian colleges that profess religion but deny the power of it.

qqq, (11/27/2007 4:59:51 PM)

Laughs Last,

Perhaps OR could stay on as Chancellor, assuming that office has no official power. I'm not sure RR should have that post after OR, maybe BJD.

But, the boards of ORU and OREA must be separate and the Lifetime Spiritual Regents must go.

Dr. HIE, WW OK (11/27/2007 5:22:34 PM)

60. 11/27/2007 4:23:21 PM, Frederic Martin, Dallas, TX

THANK YOU very well said. I worked for a very well know minister for many years and he had people talk about him just like people do Oral, Richard and Lindsay. At first I listen and began to side with the negative until I began to see more. This man and his family have people pulling on them all the time. They have accomplished more than could ever be documented or ever will be told publicly. The people that worked for him were extentions of getting those things done. BUT people don't realize this man was led by God to do things a certain way and when he would not give in to changing it to their way the undermining of his authority began. All these years he has stuck to what God showed him and endured so much public critisizim. Dispite it all this man's ministry has grown and been tremedously blessed financially and materially.

Oral, Richard and Lindsay have been used by God to help humanity that in of it self is so very precious.