The Oracle, Tulsa (12/8/2007 4:14:15 AM)

The regents of ORU remind me of Congress.They,the Congress,have voted themselves little kingdoms,set up seniority systems,prevented scrutiny by the taxpayers,voted themselves huge benefits,including a retirement system that provides millions,free health care,Huge suv's,access to large jets,frequent "fact finding" trips to exotic,expensive vacation spots,allowing staff members.family members,and friends to go along to these exotic,expensive vacation spots called "fact finding" juntas.Those members of Congress that fail to go along with the "good ol' boy system are discriminated against and denied the taxpayer funded plush perks.

jam, tulsa (12/8/2007 5:21:19 AM)

Copeland went on to say “our church prides itself on financial accountability,” citing policies and procedures designed to ensure financial integrity.

“At the same time, we have also instituted procedures to ensure the privacy of our donors, employees, directors and ministers,” he said.

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The above is "scam speak" from Copeland...Mr Grassley, we're not going to give you any useful info about our directors and ministers without a sopoena.

a, tulsa (12/8/2007 7:57:29 AM)

My only question is why this has taken so long. The 'prosperity gospel' is so obviously a scam.

John Copeland Video Interview, (12/8/2007 8:29:58 AM)

Listen for yourself-------------

www (dot) kcm (dot) org (slash) interview (dot) html

SM, (12/8/2007 2:57:43 PM)

It speaks volumes to me that Meyer and the Copelands have complied...on time. I totally disagree with the over-the-top lavish spending when so many (even at KCM, JMM, and EMIC) are struggling to pay for food and gas and to bless their children, but I pray for God's blessing and favor on each of these ministers who have chosen to yield to those in government authority. Meyer and the Copelands have practiced what they preach!

While I believe exercising more ministry accountability is appropriate, and surely coming (along with back taxes with fines), I hope these particular ministers, at some point, are given credit for the GOOD they do.

Cherry, Tulsa (12/8/2007 8:12:40 PM)

I can't wait for the day when all monies given TO a church will go to the church and NOT to the ministers and their families. I've seen many so-called preachers living in expensive houses and driving top dollar automobiles. All paid for in the name of the Lord. And when I went to this so-called church for a little help, I was turned away. What happened to helping the community? These people are no better than you and me and don't deserve to live such lavious lifestyles. I say this "in the name of the Lord!"

Jos, Owasso (12/8/2007 9:29:44 PM)

6. 12/8/2007 8:12:40 PM, Cherry, Tulsa

just a question where in your Bible says the church should "help the community" ? I'm nost asking your opinion or others opinion...just quote the Bible,please.

derek , owass (12/9/2007 12:00:26 AM)

The Acts church my friend the church the lacked nothing due too the church comming together and sharing all all all their possessions. There was no needy person among them Acts 4 , 32-35

Nickel & Dime, Tulsa (12/9/2007 12:11:58 AM)

It is amazing that the Jesus of the Bible teaches to turn no one away when help is asked for,yet there is a major ministrie that requests you at least attend one of their services and "sign up" before getting help.

Speaking of Dishonesty, tulsa (12/9/2007 1:00:47 AM)

Hey Senator. Speaking of investigating dishonesty, how about those big oil companies? Can you honestly say they are doing everything the way they should? Or do you also turn blind eyes to them?

Charismatic Mom, (12/9/2007 1:24:44 AM)

All of this hoopla is probably for nothing.

Sen. Grassley is probably on a wild goose chase anyway. However, those who pressured Sen. Grassley to launch this investigation have no doubt opened up Pandora's box and all sorts of new legislation will come of this; and these same people will have hurt their own churches! But so be it! Let the truth prevail. ~Mom

Fifty Dollar Fine, (12/9/2007 1:59:53 AM)

#11 CM - "However, those who pressured Sen. Grassley to launch this investigation have no doubt opened up Pandora's box and all sorts of new legislation will come of this; and these same people will have hurt their own churches!"

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Hm, is that the Martyr Card I hear being slapped down on the table?

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I do agree with you that this is all for nothing. It's Republicans "investigating" Republicans, the fox guarding the henhouse, one of the oldest cliches in the book.

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Nothing will come of it, except the finding that nothing has been done wrong.

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Then we can watch all the Biblebots "rejoice". lol

MO Alum, (12/9/2007 6:56:04 AM)

I think the Senator and those behind this move are looking to put a high profile Televangelist in jail or at a minimum have a very public disciplining of their practices. I don't know if they will succeed. But, I think they will use their aggressive use of Church tax breaks and protection from disclosure to tighten the rules for all churches and nfp's re: executive compensation. The days of 10,000 sq ft tax free parsonages are coming to a close, probably in 2008.

G, (12/9/2007 7:13:33 AM)

Given the numerous scandals in The U.S. Senate especially in the past two years, how can they be passing judgment on anyone?

~sojourner, Adair (12/9/2007 7:38:36 AM)

I disagree with those here saying nothing will come of this. You miss the whole point. It's all about God delivering those who are truly called and chosen out of the heresy and apostasy these preachers are peddling. I don't think God's looking to put anyone in jail here. It's about the dissimination of Truth. As CM put it, let the Truth prevail. Amen.

~sojourner, Adair (12/9/2007 7:42:03 AM)

Something Positive And Uplifting:

Jesus came and died to set the captives free. Even now, scales are beginning to fall from people's eyes, and they are seeing Truth. Though they are, and will be, in sorrow and grief discovering the apostacy they have partaken in, soon that sorrow will become joy, knowing they have escaped the very pits of hell itself! More and more will be delivered and set free from the heresy and lying signs and wonders movement that has invaded the church.. Those who are truly called and chosen are waking up as if from a deep sleep, a nightmare.. They are being set free from the deception and delusion, i.e. witchcraft, that has been allowed to infect their very souls. God is here, and is bringing His children out of the hands of the wicked... the rest of you will follow these men straight into acceptance of the lawless one foretold to rise. But for those who's heart is only towards God, who want nothing more, we will escape. The rest will be chasing the delusion, the signs and wonders.. Time is running out.... History is barreling to it's conclusion.

Now judgement has come to the pulpits, next it will hit the pews. I'm already cleaning my house, have been for some time now. One thing I do know... if your preacher is telling you we are about to enter into the most supernaturally powerful time christianity has ever seen, or some such jargon... you better run like the wind! Get out of there! No signs will save you, only FAITH in the Word!

You are about to see God seemingly remove His hand of protection and presence off of us. You will cry out and not see Him, this is the season we are entering. My prayer is that even when I don't see Him or feel Him, that I will have enough Faith to still believe. This is the test.... God is sifting the hearts and souls of men. I know He's real, He doesn't have to give me a thing, I have His Word! Heck, that's all I need! Whatever comes, I'm determined to finish my race! Please say an honest prayer and ask God to reveal the hearts of the men you look to to lead you and teach you, the ones your hearts are so open towards to recieve from, and also to reveal any wrong doctrine you may have recieved, then listen to what God tells you. It's okay to mess up and get off the path, we all do it. What's not okay is knowing the truth, and then denying it to keep following a lie. Yes, it is hard to admit you were wrong, but it's something you just have to go through, repent and also forgive yourself. I still work on that one lol

For those who defect out, there are many great resources and groups out here for you, to help you through the pain and get you through to the other side.

Nothing will stop what's to come... those who think they can fight it are very blind and have been lied to, and are lying to others.

G, (12/9/2007 10:10:14 AM)

Do You really want to trust Congress on religious issues?

Let's look at The Senate and House here. These are the same people that :

1. Waste Taxpayer Money (Bridge to Nowhere in Alaska as a recent example)

2. Cannot Balance a Budget due to off the Wall spending in BOTH political parites

3. The Senate and House have also failed to solve immigration issues.

4. Cannot fix energy issues despite billions of barrels of proven reserves off the East Coast we continue to import from repressive countries increasing our deficits needlessly.

5. Refuse to force out a Senator that had pledged to resign by September 30

(9 weeks later is still in office) The Senator later changed his mind.

6. Cannot/Will Not simplify the tax code.

7. The elderly and veterans do without health care here while Iraq gets billions of dollars of our money. Congress wants to lecture other people while they have a cool 13 percent approval record with the public.

And some people trust Congress to deal with theological issues. Scary indeed.

qqq, (12/9/2007 1:58:33 PM)

G,

Your point is, I guess, that since you think there are other issues Congress is not handling well, therefore, no matter what these 6 organizations under investigation are doing wrong, no one should investigate them?

Do you have any evidence that Grassley, in particular, has a history of improper investigations?

Mark, Okmulgee (12/9/2007 2:30:50 PM)

#18, I am thinking that the question is why have the Kennedy's and other political families been allowed to fly their jets, walk away from someone drowned...hide an intern under his desk...refuse to disclose...oh, something about Whitewater....and yet remain in or run for office. I personally wrote Nancy Pelosi to ask her some questions and her reply was she answers to no one unless they were from her district. As Speaker of The House, like it or not she represents all of us. So, if people from The Hill are so concerned about moral issues or financial issues they should begin within their own ranks.

MO Alum, (12/9/2007 2:52:51 PM)

19 Actually who gets to fly in Gov jets is a big deal. The Jets are all owned by the executive departments. So when congress gets to use them is a political issue. The political side gets even dicier with Lobbiest supplied planes and with planes rented by PAC's. Hillary was rumored to have flown in a plane paid for by the Clinton Library for years. I don't know the tax implications of all this.

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Bottom line, corporate CEO's, congressman, and preachers all like to fly by private jet. So do you allow this or not. If you allow it should they limit the amount that's can be written off tax free to an executive? For example maybe all private jet travel should be treated as taxable except for an amount equivalent to full fare first class airfare between the two destinations. So if you spend $25,000 to fly LA to N.Y. and an airline ticket is $3,000 then the CEO (of either nfp or fp) owes taxes on $22,000.

George, (12/9/2007 6:07:06 PM)

#8 I think you are misquoting the bible. The request is for any scripture where believers are commanded to help the community at large. The acts reference is a documentation of sharing that occured within the community of beleivers, not to everyone in the whole wide world or even anyone in the immediate community that is not a beleiver. That passage is an example of the church taking care of its own, not of everyone in the town. That may seem a little stuck up but thats what that passage is referring to. Still no direct statement in Christian literature that the church is an institution made for the purpose of helping the community at large.

QW, Arizona (12/9/2007 7:09:24 PM)

Nothing is lower in the public trust than this Congress with an approval rating of only 22%!

They harp endlessly on their great insitution-they can't even kick out a public bathroom pervert that plead guilty or the guy with $90,000 in the freezer in marked FBI money!

Going over the list of congress and former congressmen makes TV preachers look pretty good.

What a little hypocrite it is indeed!

First take the log out of your own eye and then get around to the splinter in your neighbors eye Mr Grassley!

Start cleaning up the cesspool-even Speaker Nancy Pelosi pledge to "start draining the swamp" but hasn't done much since she took office. I guess it was just lip service-thats what Congress does best-and waste billions of dollars.

bonnie , (12/9/2007 10:27:38 PM)

i am disgusted in all those preachers mentioned here in this forum. My daughter lives i n fort worth, she called me one day and said , you should see kennith coplands house .its more like a huge commune than a house andthe church is right near it. she felt like it shouold be a sin for those preachers to live in such extravagance. i think it would be good for them to distribute their wealth to the poor, keep a record of names and addresses of the ones they helped , so it could be verified.. ill tell you what i believe . if you cut out their money they get from the beleivers, they wouldnt be preaching at all.. its all about money

mourner, Texas (12/9/2007 10:35:35 PM)

I think things are right on track...

Judgment begins in the house of God.

You do know when and how Jesus began his work.. right?

He was 12 years old. "I must be about my Father's business," he said. He was studying the books. Auditing the accounts. Questioning the "doctors."

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Today, more than ever, many are not satisfied with serving God or God's children.

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They have become deeply involved in the world of big business They are merchants.

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They are selling everything imaginable, in every way possible. They sell coffee cups, baseball caps, jewelry, beads, books, CD's, T-shirts... you name it. They are into the banking business, the financial and investment business, the real estate business, the publishing business, the newspaper business, the TV and radio broadcasting business, the educational business, etc..

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What was that warning about serving two masters..?

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Some thing about loving one and neglecting the other.

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Oh, and some of these guys, along with selling people a bill of goods, sell "prosperity" too. Some of them know a lot about prosperity... just look at them. Altho some are forever crying poor mouth.. "we need more money, or we'll die" They are bottomless pits for money.. they never have enough.

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They mostly all want to operate their business in the dark. In secret, behind closed doors. It's no body's business but their own. (really ?) Their business which is publically funded and supported is private, not public.

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One group isn't even based in this country. It's another independent nation all by itself. A little, but very rich nation in Europe. A very, very large land-owner in the US. It was reported to have more than FOUR BILLION dollars in property in the Los Angeles area alone. It has a vast art collection and who knows what else they have stashed in their closet. But if you have eyes to see, tune in at Christmas time, they usually display some of their "lavish splendor" in a TV spectacular. A Christmas Eve celebration of Our Lord's lowly birth.

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Yet, this rich group is financially supported by millions of poor, but generous people here in the US.. (isn't this all arse-backwards?)

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And they all want to be tax-free..!

Whoopie.. No burdens for them.

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But someone has to bear that cross......

Dylan , Colorado (12/10/2007 3:37:32 PM)

Those that are pegging these ministers as prosperity preachers really need to listen to more than just one of their messages! Yes they do preach prosperity, but so did Jesus!! They also preach on perseverance, love joy peace patience, they preach on healing these ministers bring the inspired word of God, they press in and know the voice of the Holy Spirit! One thing that I would warn those speaking evil of them is to be careful of what you say about the Lords annointed!!