Early ORU Alum, Tulsa (12/20/2007 8:47:07 AM)

I totally agree with anotherkeynote above. Davwe Ellsworth is absolutely just as GUILTY as anyone else in this fiasco. I attended ORU the same time Ellsworth did in the early 70's. He lived on a wing of guys who thought they were privileged and better than anybody else. I didn't care for him then and I care even less for the guy now. I would love to see him under oath on the witness stand.

Machiavelli, Houston (12/20/2007 8:43:43 AM)

#17 Jack. I see your point. You are thinking of the $70 million and what it could do elsewhere. However, God works in mysterious ways. If you are, as I am, somewhat affluent financially, one at times wonders why there are starving children without clothes and toys and furniture, especially at Christmas time (as there are right now in the city where I live, even in Christian families) and what's God up to?

But His ways are mysterious and past finding out.

I think Mart Green is "sent by God to ORU" and that if the leaders of ORU want to continue their nefarious ways, they would be best to refuse his proposal. That will speak volumes and it will be "wisest," even from an evil, conniving, worldly way, for them.

If they take Green's money, they will be up against one very smart cookie, plus, most likely, God Himself. JMO

And God will provide for those other causes in His own perfect way. JMO2

Mark S., (12/20/2007 8:38:08 AM)

# 16

The damage has already been done to ORU degrees.

Like it or not, believe it or not, but the accumulated impact of this long-running -- and by no means anywhere near over -- scandal has deeply tarnished the value of ORU degrees.

Many alumni posting on these boards have confirmed this to be their opinions, as well.

Bill, of Brownwood, Tx -- an attorney-- was even considering a lawsuit based on devalued degrees, and bringing in other alumni in a class-action suit.

The latest to voice this opinion was only yesterday, by Alum No, who has been, and is generally , sympathetic to ORU

He asked, in effect, why pay $125,000 for a tarnished degree?

This sins of the few can effect the many.

Ol city boy, (12/20/2007 8:37:27 AM)

To the Green family:

In your trying to do the right things for the right reasons, I fear that personal agendas and egos of many that got ORU in its present state will remain regardless of your noble efforts.

I ,for one, will still applaud you when you ultimately are forced to withdraw your generous offer for a remaining $62 million as I know you and others did what you could to "right" the ship. Here's hoping that you and the many donors, students, faculty and alums over the years haven't bought a ticket on The Titanic.

How many parents are going to be willing to pay $20,000 in tuition per year for a student in '08 without more transparency and/or a more secure certainty of surviving ?

BETTER YET, (12/20/2007 9:10:21 AM)

16. 12/20/2007 8:13:55 AM, wanting the facts,

I was just talking to my husband about what I wrote and he was saying that it would be foolish for ORU to go public with the findings until they have to or until they've estblished some positive change to offset the blackening of the report. He said that of course they would go public if it were good news, but of course it isn't. So according to him, he doesn't think keeping the report quiet for now is a bad thing and he thinks it's in ORU's best interest. If they were to go public with the findings it would cause irrepairable damage to the school; not to mention the harm it would do to the ORU degrees as well, which is part of our concern.

------------------

The additional audit & the outside investigation investigation (2 SEPERATE THINGS) was done because of the lawsuit allegations made public. ORU is in the middle of that litigation. ORU PAID for the audit & investigation themselves. It's information for the defendant's attorneys, prior to the outcome, not for the public to twist, turn, interpret, or expound on.... Whether the information is good or bad, it would be handled the same way.

wanting the facts, (12/20/2007 8:33:09 AM)

Alan,

No doubt I would likely agree with you, but my husband would say that that is a nieve perspective. Damage control isn't pretty, but necessary and he contests that there are ethical ways to go about it. He works on The Hill and is familar with what is or isn't appropriate to leak to the press. He works for a congressman that is a great man, but even then the staff still has to be strategic in what is let out to the public. Depending on the agenda of the press or the status of public opinion even good news can be harmful.

MO Alum, (12/20/2007 9:31:20 AM)

Better Yet and others. Regarding the Audit report I don't think any lawyer would recommend they publish a confidential report that could be used by Richardson until they settle the law suit. It's protected now under the lawyer client privilege. I'd like to see it but I can understand not publishing it. A side comment: it was interesting to me that Green said their recommendations would come in Jan. Are they giving ORU time to settle the suit as one of their conditions of the gift? That's pure speculation on my part.

-

Regardless of the law suit at some time the supporters of ORU (as well as it critics) are going to ask did RR and LR misappropriate any funds? Did they use their position to shift funds (through jobs and scholarships) to family and friends? Did they use their influence to create jobs and majors, change grades, vacations, or provide nice dorm rooms for their daughters? How much did they pay ORU for personal services? How much was spent in real terms to support the Roberts immediate and extended families?

-

The reason this is important is that ORU is a charity but it has not been run like one. It's been run like a family business. Oral may have started it but he didn't have the legal (or in my view) moral right to run it any way he wanted. Neither did RR. If they wanted that power ORU should have incorporated as a for profit college like the University of Phx. and others. That's the price of accepting Gov. support/subsidy by accepting tax deductible donations. The public has a right to know.

Phoenix Alum, (12/20/2007 9:37:39 AM)

Many people think that all this is a new thing, but insiders from the 60's know otherwise. It is difficult for me to imagine that Mr. Green can facilitate a marked change in the operations at O.R.U., since things have been a bit off for decades - not to mention the unbalanced handling of God's precious Word. If O.R.U. wants to be a Christian university, someone will need to get back to the Bible. Not their idea of it, but genuine study of the Word, with the Holy Spirit as Guide - that they might put away false doctrines and wrong thinking. The Roberts have elevated themselves and made God small. Jesus is not the Guest of Honor in that place. They would say that this current scandal is an attack of the enemy - but the enemy is not attacking them. They have been pleasing the enemy - but, God is not pleased. Until Jesus is Lord at O.R.U. - Green will not succeed in making any changes in that place.

pat, tulsa (12/20/2007 8:32:19 AM)

Its time to clean the wound at ORU which I believe has been lanced & take out the trash.meaning things needed to be uncovered to heal & old things need to be gone & the new put into place. ORU will survive not because of any man but because its God's idea & He is cleaning house.

Midwest, (12/20/2007 9:49:55 AM)

--I hope Mart Green is not listening too much to the AFT or the NEA. Mr Booker would never be hired back. Don't do business with people who sue as a habit. Swails would never be on any significant management committee if he was hired back. He should have never hired Booker in the first place, IMO.

.

Management by committee only works to a point. There still needs to be a leader(s).

.

--ORU needs an interim leader right now with leadership characteristics like Eisenhower or Tom Osborne--well liked, listener, good reputation, good administrator, disciplined, smart, well trained, and decisive with God on his side. Dr Tom has a PhD in educational psychology. He came back to the University of Nebraska as interim athletic director. During a 6 week period, he fired the coach, made himself temporary coach so he could continue recruiting, and hired a new coach. He is now looking for a permanent athletic director.

.

--If Mart Green is going to stay in Israel, he needs someone on the ground like coach Tom Osborne. BJD and GP are too close to the family. IMO, Mr Green needs to have the power to hire and fire before he gives up the $62MM. Mr. Green can be compassionate and diplomatic as possible, but in the end people need to come and go. This needs to happen soon for some people.

Valerie, (12/20/2007 8:30:44 AM)

I hope the Roberts, the BOR, the Greens, and the Daughertys are all reading these comments.

Jack Evans, (12/20/2007 9:54:20 AM)

33

Partial openness is like partial pregnancy.

It doesn't exist.

There's either openness, or not.

You're going to trust those people, with their history of secrecy, to be the judge of that?

As Alum Mo well put it so well--

--"That's the price of accepting Gov. support/subsidy by accepting tax deductible donations. The public has a right to know."

IF the enablers who run ORU had a history of revealing the truth, one could give them the benefit of the doubt.

The opposite is true.

So trust them to be the judge of what should be known -- and when -- if you wish.

But no one else is buying that.

OHMYGOSH, (12/20/2007 9:57:38 AM)

Great comment and insight folks!

-

IMO one reason they are putting out "hopeful" press and withholding (as a valid legal strategy) any investigation/audit info is that enrollment for next semester (and Fall '08) is so important to their survival. If they loose too many students, they are TOAST. No matter what kind of grand-standing and secret handshaking they do, even some of the more gullible followers may consider pulling their children and/or donations.

-

All this depends on how many students and parents realize that a college degree is not a sunday school certificate. No matter how much respect (as reported by some alums on this board) is gained by potential employers because a person is a ORU grad, this stuff is now in the national spotlight. True, some employers look for people who are "followers" and some alum fit that bill. BUT some may question a person who KNEW they were spending big money (personal, grants, loans) to obtain a degree from a place where these sheningans were common knowledge. At this point in time it would be a gamble to keep forking out all the money in the dark. A trip to Vegas with your 401K might be less risky.

-

Tuition $$$ are vital.

CM, (12/20/2007 9:59:32 AM)

What's up with the resignation of Jesse Duplantis?

Someone mentioned that the Grassley investigation involves many ministries other than "the most egregious" six. Maybe Jesse's trying to hide under a rock before someone notices he's there. Then, again, maybe he's moving out so someone with proper academic/business background can be put in place for ORU's good. Dare we hope that he's the first of many unqualified regents who will resign?

Midwest, (12/20/2007 10:00:24 AM)

Also, ORU should join ECFA (Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability as soon as ORU and ORM/OREA are split. Even Regent University is a member. People can say what they want to about Pat Robertson, but he KNOWS how to run financial responsible organizations.

CM, (12/20/2007 10:01:04 AM)

Sorry for the previous post, I just saw the article with details about Duplantis.

Alan Pike, (12/20/2007 8:22:02 AM)

# 16 wanting the facts:

That rationale and reasoning could justify covering up a multitude of sins -- and crime-- in our churches and government.

Light is always better than darkness, even if a little more painful in the short-term.

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free."

But please don;t get your husband mad at me.

TO: MO ALUM, (12/20/2007 10:08:42 AM)

Please see the 2nd Evangelist article. TY.

Alan Pike, (12/20/2007 10:13:44 AM)

37 Ohmygosh!

--------------

A trip to Vegas with your 401K might be less risky.

----------------

Betting tuition money on an already troubled institution is really "betting the farm."

-----------

The very veil of secrecy we have been discussing argues against it.

---------

Too much is unknown. But it will come out one way or another. Be sure of that.

---------

And when it does it damage even more the investment in tuition.

-----------

There are so many UNKNOWNS at this time

--largely due to the ORU own veil of secrecy -- parents and students need to think twice -- if not three times--- before betting on this horse.

--------------

What these "secrecy, it's non-of-your-business" advocates, like Pearons don't understand is they are

undermining their own credibility

-- and perhaps keeping students away.

-----------

The cloud of UNKNOWNS covers ORU.

Ironically, fostered by the very people who should now --of all times--- be open and honest, for their own sakes.

But watch, if students and families shy away from ORU these purveyors of secrecy and cover-ups will blame posters, such as on this board, and not their own mad obsession with secrecy.

wanting the facts, (12/20/2007 10:19:41 AM)

Jack,

Nothing about the point I was making involved "trusting [ORU leaders] to be the judge of what should be known;" you are right that their history would prove that to be folly. I am merely suggesting that with the hard-ballers in play forcing ORU to clean house everything doesn't need to be public at the moment. You and Alan are jumping a few step ahead of what I'm saying. Complete disclosure is necessary, but with what I like to call the "hard-ballers" in play I don't see it as necessary for the report that is mentioned in this article to be made public at the time. It's not about trusting ORU with decisions of what should be brought to light; it's about trusting that the "hard-ballers" are not going to let things stay in the dark. If they were not involved it would be a different story, but considering that they are I don't see an absolute need for Everything to be brought before the public as a whole. Especially, if it's being brought before those who have taken action, despite the detriment to themselves, to fight for the truth and in turn the complete restoration of ORU.

Jack Evans, (12/20/2007 8:16:12 AM)

Machiavelli - Houston

---

Mart Green is an altogether great guy, with a good heart.

The mere presence of such a man puts incredible pressure on those hiding under the rock of secrecy.

The presence of such a man of integrity and qualities shames, by comparison, those who operate on polar-opposite lack of any principles.

At the least he'll "smoke'em out" and show them up by comparison.

In the end I suspect they may be more comfortable with their own ways, than the startling light of day -- and good governance-- he represents.

I just hope they don't pick his pockets in the process.

I know it's not much to him, but that money could do a world of good in Christian work somewhere.

wanting the facts, (12/20/2007 8:13:55 AM)

I was just talking to my husband about what I wrote and he was saying that it would be foolish for ORU to go public with the findings until they have to or until they've estblished some positive change to offset the blackening of the report. He said that of course they would go public if it were good news, but of course it isn't. So according to him, he doesn't think keeping the report quiet for now is a bad thing and he thinks it's in ORU's best interest. If they were to go public with the findings it would cause irrepairable damage to the school; not to mention the harm it would do to the ORU degrees as well, which is part of our concern.

wanting the facts, (12/20/2007 10:38:02 AM)

Midwest,

That's funny; good joke.

Jack Evans, (12/20/2007 10:55:26 AM)

# 44

Okay, I think I've got it. I didn't get who the "hardballers" were at first.

Now I do. Thanks.

Midwest 45

Re lawsuites...

... I think they should get those "suitcases" out of the courtroom as soon as possible, don't you?

Not a toughc hoice for RR and OR--

Someone posted that, given Mr. Green's offer and conditions, RR and OR faced a tough choice.

I don' t think so.

I think when it comes to choosing between having their own way, or having Mr. Green's money, they'll decide -- "both."

They are Roberts after all.

Mr. Green may not go along with that, though.

Anna C., (12/20/2007 11:02:00 AM)

Hats off to the Green family. Just when I thought they must have big kahunas for taking on this ORU mess, he proves, Mart proves his are the biggest in the world by doing it from the West Bank!