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Bill would lower concealed-gun age to 18
By MICK HINTON World Capitol Bureau
Published:
3/5/2008 1:28 AM
Last Modified: 3/5/2008 1:32 AM
OKLAHOMA CITY -- A bill that would lower the age at which people can carry concealed weapons from 21 to 18 is headed to the state House for consideration.
"In my district when you turn 18, you already have 16 years of experience with a gun," said Rep. Jerry Ellis, who added that he was exaggerating to make his point.
Ellis, from southeastern Oklahoma, is the author of House Bill 2232, which was approved 15-1 on Monday by the House Judiciary and Public Safety Committee.
The bill was requested by the Oklahoma Rifle Association, the state affiliate of the National Rifle Association, said Ellis, D-Valliant.
Charles Smith of Yukon, executive director of the state association, said the reason for passing the bill is simple.
"If people can vote and serve in the military at age 18, they should be able to carry a concealed gun," he said.
Rep. Marian Cooksey, R-Edmond, who cast the lone dissenting vote, said she realizes that sometimes, especially in rural areas, fathers teach their sons how to hunt and handle a gun at an early age.
"I'm not against guns," she said. "But, I wonder whether 18-year-olds are old enough to carry them. I am here to vote for what I think is right."
A week ago, the judiciary committee approved a bill that would allow 21-year-olds to carry concealed weapons on college campuses and sent the bill to the House.
Ellis emphasized that his bill has nothing to do with that measure, sponsored by Rep. Jason Murphey, R-Guthrie.
But Rep. Lucky Lamons, a former longtime Tulsa police officer, said that if these bills both pass, an 18-year-old would be able to carry a concealed weapon into a college classroom.
Lamons, D-Tulsa, said he realizes that it is difficult for lawmakers to vote against legislation dealing with the Second Amendment's right to bear arms because they don't want to be perceived by their constituents as being against guns.
Lamons said college officials are quietly contacting legislators to express concerns about Murphey's bill but that administrators don't want to speak publicly against gun-carrying laws.
"It's a sad day in Oklahoma and the United States that we are even looking at these issues," Lamons said.
Rep. Mark McCullough, R-Sapulpa, who was not present during the committee meeting when the vote was taken, said he is still struggling with the merits of Ellis' legislation.
"I am a staunch supporter of gun rights and have a permit myself," said McCullough, a lawyer and a former assistant district attorney.
He and Lamons agreed that the Legislature needs to consider the bill's ramifications.
"This is something that we ought to have robust discussion about before we do this," McCullough said.
Meanwhile, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation says it is having a difficult time keeping up with all the applications for concealed-carry licenses. The OSBI has to run security and background checks on applicants within 90 days.
"We are absolutely inundated," OSBI spokeswoman Jessica Brown said. "We are barely able to process applications in the time frame allowed by law."
More than 60,000 Oklahomans are licensed to carry concealed weapons. Licenses granted in 2006 totaled 9,591. That number jumped to 16,426 in 2007, according to the OSBI.
Mick Hinton (405) 528-2465
mick.hinton@tulsaworld.com
YOUNG GUNS
States that allow 18-yearolds to carry concealed weapons:
Alabama
California
Idaho
Indiana
Iowa
Maine
Montana
New Hampshire
North Dakota
South Dakota
Texas
Wyoming
Source:
handgunlaw.us
By MICK HINTON World Capitol Bureau
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Report Comment
mike
, tulsa (3/5/2008 6:43:53 AM)
yep lets give them real ones at age 10 so they can have "proper" training for the school years. That way they eliminate the old play ground fights and just kill each other.......yeow that's the answer!
Report Comment
Michael Phillips
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 6:45:54 AM)
Jerry Ellis is also the author of the parking lot bill. This bill doesn't effect me personally, it doesn't even effect anyone of my close acquaintance, but I understand the struggle to gain freedom. I am in that struggle too. It is a bad day for gun control advocates that this bill is even being considered.
Report Comment
Yvonne
, Mill Hall, Pa (3/5/2008 7:06:11 AM)
I dont even know how to comment on this! It's a sad day that the bill has gotten this far. What are they thinking?! Better yet, why are they NOT thinking?
Report Comment
Tommy
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 7:19:21 AM)
"'If people can vote and serve in the military at age 18, they should be able to carry a concealed gun,' he said." There is no logic here. Young people have less impulse control. That's why they can't buy alcohol until they are 21. I hope this bill fails.
Report Comment
Jared
, Green Country (3/5/2008 7:52:38 AM)
Why are so many people afraid of responsible young adults with a concealed carry license when they seem to have no fear whatsoever of irresponsible 16 year olds screaming up and down the streets in automobiles. The fact is far more people are killed and injured by teenagers with automobiles than by all of the legally carried firearms in the country. Why aren't you hand wringers agitating for restricting driving privileges until these "wild eyed lunatics" get a little older - say 21?
Report Comment
a
, tulsa (3/5/2008 8:07:30 AM)
Jared, somewhere in those ramblings you have a point. The group of people with the highest accident rate is the under 21 crowd, of course.
I don't think this is smart legislation....no wonder our country it one of the most violent in the world! I dont' want to repeal the second amendment, but it would be easier to support if the lines weren't constantly being pushed back.
Report Comment
Ross
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 8:09:19 AM)
What is sad is that as Americans we have been reduced to having to ask our government for it's permission to excercise our "God given rights". Somewhere along the way we have lost our way. Apperently in the eyes of some of our public servants, legislators, college administrators, etc. "all men are created equal," but 21 year olds are more equal than 18 year olds, or college students or ...
Report Comment
Ernie G
, (3/5/2008 8:14:13 AM)
How can you people say that an adult is an adult, except when it comes to firearms ownership and use? Your bias against all firearms and their lawful use is showing. When I was 19 years old, I was in the military, overseas, and carrying and using a fully automatic weapon. But the liberals in Oklahoma think I didn't have enough "impulse control" to carry a concealed firearm, let alone handle a fully automatic weapon in a combat situation. Amazing. Impulse control doesn't automatically come into existence when you cross an arbitrary age line, it comes from being taught restraint and judgement by your parents. Let's use some common sense here. Either give 18-year-olds full adult status, or change the age for being considered an adult back to 21.
Report Comment
Jared
, Green Country (3/5/2008 8:21:37 AM)
Well said Ernie G.
And "a", I'm glad we can agree on something. Thanks for "finding" the point I was trying to make.
Report Comment
JR
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 9:08:35 AM)
This just perpetuates a folly. The old "if I can go to war, I ought to be able to vote" came in the days of the draft and not the volunteer military. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. "if I can go to war, I ought to be considered an adult" was wrong in the 60's and it's wrong now. Eighteen year old people are not competent to assume adult liabilities. Of course, their concern has always been the "privileges" of adulthood. For the same reason they shouldn't be allowed to purchase alcohol, they should not be allowed to carry concealed weapons. Maturity and not chronological age or ability to conceive, is the deciding factor.
Report Comment
Lola
, TU (3/5/2008 9:34:57 AM)
Someone tell these politicians that the wild west ended over 100 years ago. The last thing we need is to go back to the times when people settled things by guns.
Report Comment
Jeff
, Bartlesville (3/5/2008 9:37:56 AM)
I was in the military also, and trained as a cop. All before I was 21. If they are old enough to fight in the military they are old enough to carry guns if they wish. I also feel that they should be allowed to have a beer if they want one.
I know the issues are separate, but I agree with Ernie. Give them the full rights at 18 or make them wait until 21 to be an adult
Report Comment
KIDS NEED GUNS
, BIG GUNS!!!! (3/5/2008 9:38:57 AM)
So, many high school seniors are 18. If they could then carry guns on college campuses, why not at high school? And why only the seniors? Why not give kids guns when they're 15, just entering high school? Why not Jr. High? It's their 2nd amendment right.
KIDS NEED GUNS!
Report Comment
Yvonne
, Mill Hall, Pa (3/5/2008 10:16:29 AM)
Law enforcement aside, why would an 18 yr old NEED to have a gun? Being trained in the military is one thing, carrying a weapon to protect crack is another. This is ridiculous!~
Report Comment
Native American
, (3/5/2008 10:41:28 AM)
If citizens are armed criminals will think twice about assaulting them! If an 18 year old can go to war then they should be able to carry a concealed weapon!
Report Comment
Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria
, History (3/5/2008 11:13:36 AM)
"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for ills, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty -- so dear to men, so dear to the enlightened legislator - and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer?
Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree."
Report Comment
Michael Phillips
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 11:29:15 AM)
The 18 year olds won't carry on high school campus for the same reason that this old man won't carry on a high school campus. It is against federal and state law for anyone to carry on high school campuses with the exception of hired security.
Report Comment
Alison
, (3/5/2008 11:59:22 AM)
Michael,
Yes, while it is against state and federal law for anyone to carry a gun on high school campuses with the exception of hired security, does it stop those that do anyway? I didn't think so. Just as I think it is ludicrous to think that college campuses should allow students to carry concealed weapons. I understand with the events having taken place in the past year, students want to feel safe in the classroom, but someone can just as easily can carry a concealed weapon into the classroom, have a heated debate, not agree with the other side and fire off. Yes, they are college students and they should be mature enough to hold back that anger, but some might not be able to. However, the idea of giving an 18 year old the right to carry a concealed weapon is ridiculous.
Report Comment
Michael Phillips
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 1:08:03 PM)
Alison, when a high school kid takes a gun to school you will hear about it on the news. It is a big story. The kid is suspended for the remainder of the semester and a year. There may be criminal charges as a Youthful Offender or even an Adult. The public schools may not have a good reputation, but if your impression is that many students are armed, you're mistaken. The answer to your first question is, an emphatic yes.
Report Comment
Lawrence
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 1:54:57 PM)
11. 3/5/2008 9:34:57 AM, Lola, TU
Someone tell these politicians that the wild west ended over 100 years ago. The last thing we need is to go back to the times when people settled things by guns.
.................
I could not have said it better
Report Comment
shane
, tulsa (3/5/2008 2:26:07 PM)
scary
Report Comment
mc
, tulsa (3/5/2008 3:55:06 PM)
This is beyond crazy to allow the age to carry a gun to be changed. Just as it is to allow college kids to carry weapons on the campus. There has only been 2 situations in the last year in the United States regarding a shooting on a college campus. 2 situations out of how many college campuses...thousands!!! To allow more and more people to carry guns is beyond stupid. I agree with Lola the wild west ended over 100 years ago. These good ol' boys in politics that have been handling guns since they were young children are raised differently then those that are in the city. I am currently in school in Tulsa, I would be more afraid to attend classes knowing there could be a lot of kids carrying guns around. I am going into education for my major and would never feel comfortable teaching kids that are allowed to have guns in my classroom. You people that agree with this...do you think the college professors are going to enjoy knowing if they give a student the wrong grade the student could legally carrying a gun onto campus and do what they need to do to get a better grade or just take care of the teacher. In the last 2 situations that happened at campuses each pweson did not have a history of violence or problems. Anyone can go over board at any point in time. Why pass laws that encourage negative behavior???
Report Comment
John Doe
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 4:01:08 PM)
Folks, I'm only 24 but I've literally been around this world a few times already...and you old farts should be ashamed of yourselves!! This IS, believe it or not, a dangerous world we are living in. Crime will happen wether you want it to or not. Allowing someone the right to defend themselves from a violent crime is called LIBERTY AND FREEDOM!!!! You anti-gun idiots need to figure that out.
I can't wait for this to bite one of you old gun control activists in the butt. All it will take is for you to walk into your starbucks for your $6 coffee and be in the middle of a hold up. Then the 18 year old next to you pulls his "murderous, dangerous, terrifying weapon" out and kills the bad guy and saves your butt. Is that what it is going to take for you to figure this out?
Report Comment
Happiness
, is a warm gun (3/5/2008 4:28:17 PM)
Ahh, yes. Then we will carry that sharp shooting young man around the Starbucks parking lot on our shoulders. We will shower him will kisses and many thanks for murdering someone without hesitation. What if the robber had a comb in his pocket instead of a gun? It's happened before. I can only hope to be sitting on the jury stand that day. I'm sure his lawyer will argue "the boy had too much coffee" or "that scumbag really could've done some harm with that unbreakable comb".
Yeah! Shoot 'em up and ask questions later, lock and load, and other cool gun stuff.
Report Comment
Stephen
, Tulsa (3/5/2008 7:50:08 PM)
So you have to be 21 to purchase a pistol and buy ammo for said pistol so how can this be legal.
I spent quite a while in the military and saw many very mature 18yr olds handling rifles pistols and machine guns. Now they had a lot of training and supervision. I really can not see a reason to allow the law or not.
oh and those of you who say a student could legally carry a gun on campus and threaten a teacher. You need to lay off the pipe. First if the student has a Concealed carry permit the gun would be concealed not on her hip like Wyatt Earp. Second if she carries it with the intention of threatening someone then she is no longer legally carrying the weapon. Last but not least when she threatens someone that is called I believe brandishing which is illegal.
For you what if he was holding up the store with a comb types. Well if I can not see what it is and he is threatening me like it is a gun I will act accordingly. Now I would bet if it was a comb as soon as someone pointed a gun at him he would show it was a comb along with loose some control of bodily functions. Also better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.
Just a couple things to remember: If guns kill people spoons made Micheal Moore fat.
Ted Kennedys car has killed more people then my gun.
And of all the gun shows in Tulsa where lots of people have guns when was the last time anyone attending the show was shot/robbed/attacked/raped/or murdered either at the show or in the surrounding area of the show? With they way some of you think about guns there should be about 200 deaths there a year.
Oh and I dont have a concealed carry permit
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