mike, tulsa (3/28/2008 6:41:27 AM)

ain't it amazing how so many folks find "jesus" while in jail?

a, tulsa (3/28/2008 6:49:53 AM)

Sad, really. Trading one set of false morals for another.
Not that I don't wish them well, but rarely do I see religion being positive.

Chris, Muskogee (3/28/2008 6:59:22 AM)

Yeah Mike it is amazing man! Maybe Awesome would better describe it. He's the ONLY way to Heaven! Don't leave earth without him.

what a joke, tulsa (3/28/2008 7:09:39 AM)

DONT THESE PEOPLE HAVE SOME TRASH TO PICK UP
JAIL HOUSE RELIGION IS SOOOO PHONY.

Joey, Tulsa (3/28/2008 7:10:03 AM)

I can't see how a statement like, "My hate is gone" could be viewed as anything but positive, but somehow other readers apparently can. This is a wonderful article that reinforces my faith in the power of restoration.

RC, Jenks (3/28/2008 7:30:44 AM)

(a) In Tulsa. The Bible has never been proved false. Give an example. Are you saying that not murdering, not lying, not stealing, honoring your Father and Mother, and loving your neighbor as yourself are false morals? Hmm. I believe in the case of the inmates and all of us you have to come to the end of yourself and be humbled before God will change you. In prison you begin to realize that you are not in control of your own life, thus you are closer to being ready for change. All religion is not positive but a true relationship with Jesus Christ is.

tom, park hill (3/28/2008 7:33:31 AM)

I dont know when we became so lost from the values that made this a great country. If more people lived by jesus's teaching then maybe there wouldnt be as many unhappy people running around killing, stealing, and wasteing their lives with drugs.

Rick, Tulsa (3/28/2008 7:57:12 AM)

Mike, yeah they found Jesus in jail; that's where he hangs out, wherever the destitute, lonely, and those without hope. These people have been relying and worshipping themselves, which has led them to where they are now. In your path of whatever you trust in, it may have not led you to jail, but it's leading you somewhere. Transferring worship from ourselves fully to God does not lead people to do bad things, but to do good with their lives, and in loving other people. Those that do wrong in the name of Jesus aren't really worshipping Jesus but are still trusting in this world and what it has to offer.

Jessica, (3/28/2008 7:57:36 AM)

*sigh*
ok, here we go
Let me preface this by saying I am a Christian and active in more than one Christian communities so you can't attack me from that front. Obviously these people who end up in jail time and time again have something lacking in their life, and maybe all they need is to grow a little closer to God. Fine, all for it. HOWEVER.
Our great country was founded on the principles of seperation of church and state. The problem that I have with this is that there is an official jailhouse chaplain that only represents one religion. How is this constitutional? Why is this allowed to happen? Sure, let a church come in and talk to the people, but by making the administration Christian, you are doing a disservice to everyone-state AND church. Those of you who have referenced "jailhouse religion" are no doubt referring to the phenomenon of inmates becoming "religious" in order to lessen their sentence, etc. Not only is this bad for the justice system, but the church gets a bad rap for it too. If you want to REALLY help these people, church, take the pressure off and remove Christianity from the administration, so that those souls you save will be genuine and not forced.

mike, tulsa (3/28/2008 8:08:59 AM)

well the falsehood is that after "finding" him they seem to loose him when they get out!

Kimberly, Tulsa (3/28/2008 8:17:39 AM)

"With soap, baptism is a good thing."--Robert G. Ingersoll

Recovering Baptist, (3/28/2008 8:38:27 AM)

Hell, Paris Hilton found Jesus when she was in jail, and we see how she embraced that.

Gina, Tulsa (3/28/2008 8:51:07 AM)

How is our country founded on a separation of church and state? This is a statement I hear time and time again that can never adequately be backed up. The vast majority (if not all) of our forefathers were religious men. We are “one nation under God.” Our currency reinforces that “in God we trust.” For the most part, our leaders take their oaths of office on a Bible. Our country was not founded on a separation of church and state, but rather was founded with the idea that no one would be persecuted for his or her religious beliefs, or lack thereof. What is going on in the Creek County jail is not about Christianity being forced down anyone’s throat, it is not about anyone being punished for not finding God. It is simply giving people to opportunity to learn about God if they so choose. And yes, this particular jailhouse chaplain only represents Christianity, but I have no doubt that if a Jewish Rabbi, for example, wanted to come in a minister to some of the inmates, he would be allowed to do so. If he were not allowed to come in and minister, then (and only then) would we rightly and justly be allowed to complain about a lack of “separation of church and state” (or, more accurately a lack of religious freedom) because in that instance the state (in this case, the Creek County Jail) would only be reinforcing the idea of only one “right” way to practice religion.

Jessica, (3/28/2008 9:17:17 AM)

Alright, Gina,
Yes, mostly religious men...but not all Christian! Thats the difference. Jefferson was a well known deist. Many different denominations of Christianity that disagreed vehemently among them as well. The seperation of Chuch and State phrase is actually, you are right, not in the INITIAL founding, but in the Bill of Rights, the first amendments to the Constitution, which was added shortly after the founding. Still, our founding beliefs still rest in this schism that keeps the church out of the law and the law out of the church, which is better for all of us. Yes, some archaic traditions still exist that hold Christianity above other religions in our society. I don't believe this is right either. But those traditions are really not as important as some of the more pressing issuses in government today, so we will get to them at some point.
The simple fact that we (the state) are paying someone whose sole purpose is to minister to these inmates does, I believe, violate that seperation. It also does, as I stated earlier, lead to inmates "accepting Jesus" as a means of reconciling with the administration that provides such a chaplain. I would like to see a Rabbi go in there and try to get permission to speak to those men. I doubt the Reverend would have it. I might even be willing to bet that only certain denominations make their rounds at the Creek County Jail. It really all depends on the chaplain himself. And because he has the power to do that, he is limiting, in your terms, the relgious freedom of the jail inmates he serves.

Tulsa Native, Tulsa (3/28/2008 9:17:18 AM)

Gina, your revisionist view of history is completely false. The true founders of our nation wanted a secular government. The language of the Constitution was worded as such and was in response to the individual states' articles and constitutions that pronounced Christianity as "the one religion" and God "as the one supreme being." When the Constitution was drafted - and, indeed, the Amendments that followed - the authors deliberately avoided using religious language to create a secular government. And, to add to that, many of our founding fathers were either desist or agnostic. Those who were Christian did not attempt to inject their religion into the government, as that would have gone against the very reason to create a new country in the first place. As such, our country was absolutely founded on the principle of separation of church and state.

"In God We Trust" did not become an official motto until 1956. "One nation, under God" was added to the pledge in 1954. Both of these stemmed from the massive anti-Communist sentiments at the time.

Nobody is keeping these people in the Creek County jail from "finding God." However, setting up a trough of water and baptizing huge numbers of inmates is a clear example of state-sponsored religion and is therefore unconstitutional.

I would find it much easier to respect your faith if you would educate yourself with the true facts and still stick to your convictions. Wearing a blind = blind faith and that I cannot respect.

mrdarrow, Tulsa (3/28/2008 9:27:15 AM)

I see no separation of Church and State issue here. Nowhere in the article does it say that Christianity is the *exclusive* religion provider at the CCJ.

If other religions would like to minister to the inmates, I doubt the Sheriff would object.

I can't see anything bad associated with this. If even one inmate accepts a new way of life - we all win . . .

. . . and it's not costing you $54.13 per day.

Tulsa Native, Tulsa (3/28/2008 9:30:48 AM)

mrdarrow: You miss the point. Whether this was an exclusive act or not, it still amounts to state-sponsored religion and state-sponsored religion is unconstitutional.

Thom, Tulsa (3/28/2008 9:38:59 AM)

How is this a violation of separation of church /state? Unless they are compelled to perform religious acts, then the jail / county is not violating anything. If a prisoner wants to become religious, then that is their constitutional right to do so, and the jail must reasonably accomodate religious activities of the inmates. If this is just a half-hearted attempt by the prisoners to gain favor from the court, but it does cause them to change their behavior, then it works anyhow, even if it is not genuine.

Tulsa Native, Tulsa (3/28/2008 9:41:02 AM)

I'll say it ONE more time: Any state-sponsored religion is unconstitutional. It does not matter if it is exclusive or if it is optional. If the state sponsors it (i.e., allowing a mass baptism at a state-run detention facility) it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Just because you personally jive on religion does not change the rules.

DwightD, Tulsa (3/28/2008 10:05:10 AM)

All of you miss the point entirely. Here is another example of how the TW makes it appear that these criminals are somehow going to just take a 180 degree turn and be wonderful human beings. Charles Manson found Jesus in prison too, but does that mean we should just open the doors and let him out to mingle with the rest of us? Most of these criminals are lying dirtbags and would probably say anything to get out of jail. I am glad these dirtbags are locked up and not on the street. If you believe our prisons reform people, then you probably think oreo cookies are diet food. We have lost sight in this country of real punishment. Jail or prison should be a place so horrible, so disgusting, so lonely, so brutal that after serving your time you would not ever commit a crime again for fear of going back. However that does not seem to be the case because these dirtbags have it better than most people on the street - cable tv, free food, workout room, library, technical training and a nice warm bed. What is wrong with this picture?????

Okies Are Dumb, (3/28/2008 10:09:27 AM)

#16. You are a moron!

Thom, Tulsa (3/28/2008 10:44:26 AM)

Tulsa Native - feel free to say it as many times as you like, but the fact remains that the government can not forcibly keep people from exercising their religion. As you argue, the jail should not allow people to have bibles, quorans, or any other religious literature while they are in jail. They wouldn't be allowed to pray while in jail or speak of faith at all. If an employee were to simply admit to having belonged to a religion, then that would be a violation under your argument. If these prisoners wanted to be baptised because of their religious beliefs, the state can not deny them this unless it is unsafe or unreasonable.

And, no, as an athiest, I don't "jive" on any religion.

Hank, Pawhuska, Ok (3/28/2008 10:45:40 AM)

Oreo cookies aren’t diet food?

Jared, Broken Arrow (3/28/2008 10:46:25 AM)

I'm pretty sure that if the local Jewish synagogues or Islamic mosques expressed a desire to talk to the inmates, they would be allowed to. Just because they don't visit inmates to share their faith and Christian churches do visit inmates and share their faith doesn't make Christianity a "state sponsored" religion. It means that people who appreciate what their faith has done in their lives want others to have opportunity to have a similar experience. Personally, I think if our state's inmates started reflecting Christian values, we would have a lot less repeat offenders. For the record, Jefferson's infamous "separation of church and state" line was addressed with concerns of state interference with the church, not the other way around. If you want a secular state, fine, but don't base your argument on a flawed historical premise.

mrdarrow, Tulsa (3/28/2008 10:51:24 AM)

Yes 21, I am a moron, but that has nothing to do with the fact this doesn't violate C&S.

For those of you who do think this is a violation of Church and State, direct your attention to RILUPA - i.e. - preventing the inmates from worship activities would violate federal law.

I still don't see where the State is *sponsoring* anything.

Allowing religious groups to minister to inmates is not *sponsorship* unless you're preventing the same access to other religious groups.