RockBoston, (6/17/2008 7:37:16 AM)

Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, always comes to mind. This progressive ,backwards state of California, is setting a horrible example to others. I really hope the federal goverment can do something to stop this nonsense.

Democrat, (6/17/2008 8:21:38 AM)

This turn of events in California does raise a lot of questions.

What impact will this exercise of states' rights have on the 2008 presidential campaign? Once again the "g" of gays will be used by the Republicans to rally "the base" in an election year.

Will Dick Cheney's daughter and her same-sex partner go to California in order to legitimize their child in the eyes of the law?

Will normally "states' rightists" of the right-wing, seek to have the federal courts intervene to overturn the ruling of the California Supreme Court's interpretation of the California law?

How will the federal courts rule on the legitimate issue that will arise under the "full-faith and credit" provision of the US Constitution. States are expected as a matter of routine to respect the legality of marriages performed under the law of other states or will the federal courts allow other states to ignore the legality of "gay marriages" because those marriages are a violation of state policy? I'm sure the opinions will be interesting on both sides of what will likely be a divided court decision.

Graychin, Eucha (6/17/2008 8:57:31 AM)

Democrat - good post!

To see the future of America, watch California. You might not like it, but it's true.

My marriage doesn't feel the least bit threatened this morning. It would be a better world if all the busybodies would just mind their own business instead of obsessing over what two little old ladies in California are doing.

Lionloving? Is that legal yet in California?

godless, (6/17/2008 8:57:35 AM)

You said - "There is no such thing as same sex marriage. "

Yes, there is.

"Sodom was destroyed because of the sinful practice of homosexuality. "

Whatever. This is your religious text - not law. Your fairy tales have nothing to do with how we govern our people.

"This is crazy and its Homosexuality! i dont know why you would want be Gay its just stupid and sickening! "

They could turn right around and say "This is crazy and its Heterosexuality! i dont know why you would want be straight its just stupid and sickening! "

RockBoston, (6/17/2008 9:24:59 AM)

godless, you need a dose of truth. Who cares what happend to Sodom, but it's good for the context of this article. Homosexuality is gross. It is a choice to. How many of the "gays" turn around and say "Opps not gay anymore found a good looking woman" Everyone is straight, gay people are just weird, and haven't found the rigth person. If God had wanted us to be gay, we would never procreate the society.
Same sex couples should never be allowed to raise children. I am not saying that they would raise the child to be gay. I am saying that the child won't have a fair upbringing, and therefor a warped sense of what is right. How is a boy going to grow up knowing how to be a man if he's raised by 2 woman? How will a little girl grow into a good woman and mother if raised by 2 men? Everybody go ahead and bash my comments, but at least come up with somehting inteligent to say.

godless, (6/17/2008 9:43:20 AM)

Homosexuality is no more a choice than heterosexuality. I can turn your comments around and say, how many straight people suddenly "realize" they're gay?
Homosexuality is a small percentage of the population - as for god wanting us to procreate, it gets the job done now, what's the problem. Perhaps this is god's way of population control, eh?

As for children being raised by same sex couples - happens all the time, and the children turn out great. I know quite a few couples who are doing that as we speak, and the children are fine. In one case, the parents are lesbians - the child is straight. In the other case, two males are raising a boy - straight. Sexual orientation is not influenced by the environment, although it might go a long way in providing a sense of acceptance of the differences inherent in society.
And your sense of "what is right" is not for all - you do not have the final word on what is right or wrong.

godless, (6/17/2008 9:55:33 AM)

oh, and by the way - studies have shown repeatedly that children raised by same-sex couples turn out to be well-adjusted children. They're just fine. No problems.

Democrat, (6/17/2008 10:28:41 AM)

In my opinion, it is a mistake to engage "true-believers" of religious dogma in a debate about their values. It only seems to bring them out to vote in large numbers and pulls attention away from the hypocrisy of their conservative political posturing.

I believe that my fellow liberals would be better served and the Democratic party would be more successful if we treat this case as a matter for California to decide. That places the conservatives and the Republican party in the uncomfortable position of having to argue that the federal judges need to become "judicial activists" and substitute their opinions on the meaning of California law for the opinions of the justices of California's State Supreme Court.

The conservative federal judges and Supreme Court Justices will also have to use a broad construction approach to the Constitution, rather than the strict construction approach that they tell us is the proper way to interpret the constitution in order to rule that other states do not have to extend "full faith and credit to the public acts of the other states.

RockBoston, (6/17/2008 10:40:57 AM)

godless, I like your idea of population control. I hadn't thought of that. I am not saying that same sex couples wil raise the children to be the same way. What I am saying is some of the core values might not be shown in that enviroment. As for people saying their gay and then being straight. My point is this, they are all bi sexual. What I am saying is you can't say your "gay" if you have or will be with a woman. Big concern for same sex marriage is same sex divorce. What if they get divorec because of a straight affair? Throw some children into the mix and it gets weird fast. I am not relgious much, so I won't quote the bible. I know I don't have a say in anyof this. If they put it to a vote here in Oklahoma I will have a say. Good points though godless.

godless, (6/17/2008 10:46:33 AM)

what would you call "core values?" I suppose that depends upon the person, as to what that might refer to.

Same sex -divorce? This is... different from the heterosexual marriages that end up in divorce 45-50% of the time? Children raised in a same-sex environment would have no more problems dealing with the divorce of their parents than in any other situation. It would be their parents, plain and simple.

And you can indeed call yourself gay if you have been with someone of the opposite sex. People attempt to hide their sexual orientation all the time, simply because of the "shame" placed upon their preference by people like yourself.

Tim Denver, (6/17/2008 11:09:37 AM)

What core values are you talking about ROCKBOSTON? There are plenty hetero of families out there who have no values being passed along to there children. Think about it. How many children are being raised in single parent homes without the benefit of a father? I am gay, proud to be, raising three children with my life partner of twelve years. My children excel in school, have been raised with "core values", know right from wrong, have never been involved in trouble in school, involved with extra curricular activities. We take our children to the zoo, concerts, the library, museums, etc. They have been raised with more love then many children out there. Tell me I am not a good father, ROCKBOSTON. Focus on your own family, and leave others alone.,

James, Weatherford, (6/17/2008 11:13:21 AM)

Would one of the opponents of same-sex marriage please enlighten me as to the mechanism by which gay marriage threatens the institution of marriage? Like Graychin, I cannot figure out why my marriage is threatened when other people who love each other get married.

Like integration 50 years ago, the struggle for equal rights for gays is being cast in moral terms. It was declared "immoral" to have interracial dating and marriage back then, and it was to be the downfall of our American society. Fifty years from now, the homophobes of today will appear just as backward and just as stupid.

Democrat, (6/17/2008 11:34:15 AM)

Tim, James, godless, and Graychin:

You are all correct. Being gay is not a choice. No one's heterosexual marriage is threatened in any way by extending legal recognition to a loving, supportive relationship between two adults of the same gender. Gay couples are fully able to raise well adjusted kids, just as are heterosexual couples.

Yet, engaging people with the mentality of the others expressing opinions here will never convince them. Their minds are narrow and made-up.

Our better course of action (politically) is to focus attention on the hypcocisy of their political posturing. This keeps them on the defensive, minimizes the mindless backlash and huge turnout on election day, while it allows our side to make the case to those who are struggling to come to terms with what they have been conditioned to believe about sexual orientation and what their sense of justice tells them that they should believe. We should be using the philosophy shared by Christ, Gandhi, and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and early 1960s-- Do not resist evil, but allow the light of day in to expose evil. Every time one of these "holier-than-thous" expresses his hateful opinion about gays, he hurts his own cause with those who are struggling to overcome their upbringing and do the right thing. We only need to talk about how hypocritical they are for opposing states' rights and a strict construction of the constitution.

RockBoston, (6/17/2008 12:25:49 PM)

Tim Denver quit being an activist for your own "gay" agenda. I never said same sex couples can't be good parents. My argument is based on what makes up a family. Every child should have both a mother and a father to be loved by. I applaud that you have raised your children well. Are they adopted or from a previous relationship? I just think that all children should have both sides of a nuturing relationship. Those are the core values of which I speak.
godless, what I am talking about in same sex divorce is the reasoning. I said what happens if one goes straight? It's one thing if "timmy" has to go to dads house for a the weekend. It's a whole other ballgame if "Timmy" has to explain to his friends that his dad's divorced for new dads, or now dad #2 is married to mom #1. Children shouldn't have to deal with complex adult relationships. I am against divorce in the first place no matter who you are married to. Cheating or beating are the only 2 reasons for a divorce as far as I can tell. Anything is useless as a ground fro divorce. Oklahoma has to much of that as it is. I am not a homophobe as labled. I have a few gay friends. They respect that their life style in not in the norm. They don't make out with each other in front of me thankfully. It is just my opinion, that is shared by many that choosing to be with the same sex is wrong. Most of the guys I know that were with other guys, now look at it like why? They were being gross and say their parents didn't love them enough. Most women that I have ever known have done something sexaul with another woman at least once in their lives without being called lesbians. If same sex couples want rights thats fine, just keep it out of the spot light. Quit trying to make it lok cool to be gay or lesbian.
I ask this of all same sex couples" Do you want kids of your own"? If so do be gay or lesbian. I applaud anyone who adopts, but don't you want kids that are your own by birth? Allright I have said my say. Now lets carry on with the bashing of people like me, which are the majority.

RockBoston, (6/17/2008 12:28:31 PM)

Another question why when some amn decide they are coming out as gay, why do they then start talking all high pitched and "gay"? Thats why the hatred towards gays becuase some of them can be so flamboyunet. Yeah I can't spell so noted.

Democrat, (6/17/2008 12:46:48 PM)

RockBoston:

Do you think that the federal courts should intervene in this case and overrule the California Supreme Court's ruling on California law?

Do you think that other states should follow the strict guidelines established by the US Constitution and extend full faith and credit to all marriages performed in California?

Tim Denver, (6/17/2008 12:52:00 PM)

RockBoston, first of all, there is no 'gay agenda." We are not frocing the way we live our lvies on anyone. We simply expect to be treated ewually, with human dignity. what is wrong with that? The children we have are neither adopted nor from a previous relationship. I have been out since high school. We used a surrogate. Two sons and a daughter.

Times are changing like they always have. We are gaining ground and becoming more and more accepted. That is the way it should be.

You cannot deny you are a homophobe. Anyone who demonstrates misunderstanding or disdain for another person, be it religion, skin color, national origin, sexual orientation, etc, is demonstrating hatred but also fear for what they do not understand. Some people do not lembracediversity. They are more comfortable being around people who are identical to them. How boring is that....diversity is what makes the world unique.

I am not bashing you. I am simply trying to point out your misguided views.

I don't know why some people develop high pitched voices. I don't.

Tim Denver, (6/17/2008 12:58:32 PM)

RockBoston, first of all, there is no 'gay agenda." We are not frocing the way we live our lvies on anyone. We simply expect to be treated ewually, with human dignity. what is wrong with that? The children we have are neither adopted nor from a previous relationship. I have been out since high school. We used a surrogate. Two sons and a daughter.

Times are changing like they always have. We are gaining ground and becoming more and more accepted. That is the way it should be.

You cannot deny you are a homophobe. Anyone who demonstrates misunderstanding or disdain for another person, be it religion, skin color, national origin, sexual orientation, etc, is demonstrating hatred but also fear for what they do not understand. Some people do not lembracediversity. They are more comfortable being around people who are identical to them. How boring is that....diversity is what makes the world unique.

I am not bashing you. I am simply trying to point out your misguided views.

I don't know why some people develop high pitched voices. I don't.

Tim Denver, (6/17/2008 1:52:19 PM)

Think about the economic stimulus gay marriage is bringing to the state of California, the wedding planners, the receptions, the hotel accommodations, entertainment...think about it. Gays are doing for the economy the good ol' Dubya. If he was truly interested in stimulatiing the economy, he recognize gay marriage on a federal level.

JL, (6/17/2008 1:57:11 PM)

First problem i see here is that it was put to a vote in California and activist judges put the will of the people underfoot and made their own ruling. Also I do not see the argument for the fact that homosexuality is nature and not nuture. Have they isolated a gene or anything that proves that homosexuality is inborne? They have in alcoholics but for some reason we still have rehab and tell them that they are weird or not normal. If we are going to go against the will of the people who have voted against something then we must also go against these terrible rehab institutions and the likes.

JL, (6/17/2008 2:06:21 PM)

Democrat ?????? The people of california already voted on this. You want to talk about opposing states rights. What the people in California want apparently doesnt matter as a panel of a few judges make the decision instead of the millions of californians.

Democrat, (6/17/2008 2:15:35 PM)

Finally, someone on the political right is willing to debate the point begun by RockBoston in his first post and then ignored by him. Should the federal government step in?

JL:

It seems that we have a difference in opinion in how to define "activist judges." It appears that in addition to your opposition to federal judges "interfering" with the will of the people of the states by invoking the power of judicial review over state laws, you wish to broaden the term to tie the hands of the state Supreme Courts to prevent them from ruling on the constitutionality of state laws. Not even Jefferson and Madison argued that point in the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions.

JL, are you so quick to demand that the courts not overturn "the will of the people" when a state legislature or the federal congress passes a gun control law or do you hope that the judges will intervene to protect your 2nd Amendment rights?

I'm just starting, there are plenty of other "conservative" issues for me to ask you about. Make sure that you give your response plenty of thought.

Democrat, (6/17/2008 2:23:02 PM)

JL:

Even though my post above is still a good enough response to your more recent post, I will answer your question because I can't expect you to respond to my question if I don't also respond to yours.

The Bill of Rights is in the Constitution of the US and a version of the Bill of Rights is in the state constitution to prevent the national congress and the state legislatures from violating individual liberties and equal protection of the laws "in the name of the people." It is most unreasonable of you to expect the legislative branch to police itself in insuring that the majority will does not violate minority rights. This is wrapped up in the concepts of separation of powers and system of checks and balances. These checks were included by our founding fathers to prevent our government from ever becoming a tyranny.

Now, please respond to my question about judicial activism and the second amendment.

JL, (6/17/2008 2:23:27 PM)

Ok so your arguing that the legislative branch Serves no purpose and that we should strictly go off of the state of california's constitution which is interpreted by a judge? How was this constitution put into place democrat? Was it 2 or 3 people sitting down and writing it or is it to reflect the will of the people?

RockBoston, (6/17/2008 2:25:01 PM)

My views no matter how misguided are my own. I also know that they are shared by a great many people. I was really hoping that you would be able to answer the question of the voice thing Tim....That is probally the thing that makes me most dislike gay men. I don't know why the fact that a man is gay some choose to act like "insert derogatory word"... I have known some good gay people, and some really funny lesbians. I just think that in America eveyone is going for equal rights for everything. From same sex,relgion,race,customs,jobs,immigration.....Where do we as a people draw the line and say enough is enough. If we don't put boundries on something, than everything goes. This country is a democracy, and needs to remain that way. I diplore the judges for forcing this issue. It really has nothing to do with same sex marriage. This is about the principals thegoverment was founded on. If you take away our right to vote on this matter, whats next? Do you see my point now. I really hope Tim that your kids have the same view points to democracy that I do. I know they will embrace same sex marriage differnt, but I hope they see democray the same. Good job raising them though, and I'm glad you did the serogacy thing, I've always been a fan for many reason of that. I just had a son born to me last week. I am really scared that he will be forced to embrace many idea that I don't feel are right and good. It will be his choice what he chooses to believe, about anything. Maybe he will turn out gay, I don't know. I will love him either way.