QuickDraw, Coweta (9/9/2008 2:53:01 PM)

This is wrong. If a church body disagrees with the umbrella organization, it should be able to withdraw from the association. I don't know how Presbyterian's are governed, but in most denominations, the church property was paid for by the tithes and offerings of the local congregation members. If this judgement is not reversed, where will the court stop next.

Piedmont_3, Piedmont (9/9/2008 3:19:21 PM)

It doesn't matter who paid for it.
It only matters whose name (person or entity) is listed on the deed.

Bill Hader, Jenks (9/9/2008 3:21:13 PM)

QuickDraw, Only in some cases are they paid by the locals. Most of the smaller churches draw money from the body to keep alive. Otherwise they would dry up. They should have considered this before leaving the umbrella of the mothership so to speak.

Matt, (9/9/2008 4:27:52 PM)

Where does Joe-Allen Doty stand on this? He usually has a comment about every story published, I'm surprised he hasn't posted yet.

jenksmom, (9/9/2008 4:31:18 PM)

I am a member of the Kirk and we left the "umbrella" because we felt that the Presbyterian organization that we had been part of was moving away from the Bible. As members, we have added onto the church, etc out of our own pockets all of these years. As with everything, we feel like God is guiding this and obviously has a different plan. It will be sad, but our congregation is strong.

Rev. Robert E. Murchison,R.Pp., Sallisaw (9/9/2008 4:51:00 PM)

If the congregation of Kirk of the Hills Presbyterian Church are strong in the Creator, His ways, and His words then they will survive no matter what decision comes from the courts. As Anna Conda brought about the tent would suffice, a congregation will find what will suit them best if they only will hear what Creator says. In the beginning of the Christian church, the church was not a building but the people and they met where they could as long as they followed His will and not their own. Peace and Blessings to All. May Creator keep You from Harm. Rev. Robert E. Spiritwalker Murchison, R.Pp.

jenksmom, (9/9/2008 4:56:51 PM)

Also - just to keep the facts straight...Tulsa County District Judge Jefferson Sellers ruled today that the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) and the Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery of the PCUSA (EOP) own the Kirk of the Hills property at
4102 E. 61st Street, under the denomination’s constitution. A constitutional provision inserted in 1983 provides that the denomination holds a trust interest in the property of a local church, even when the local church bought and paid
for the property. The Kirk of the Hills paid for the property over the last four decades and the deeds are in the Kirk Corporation’s name.

Ignatz, Broken Bow (9/9/2008 5:13:31 PM)

jenksmom, your comment makes no sense. If the "deeds" (??) indicated the title to the property belonged to the congregation there would be no lawsuit, no decision today, and no story in the paper. Either the "national" church owns the property and Kirk must depart, or it doesn't and can stay. Obviously, the congregation knew this day would come the minute the suit was filed.

TFDGUY3875, (9/9/2008 5:29:53 PM)

The results of today's decision were going to be met with a plan no matter what the decision was. Our church is not a building, it is our congregation. Our congregation is made up of janitors, car salesmen, executives, cops, teachers, firemen, stay at home moms etc. We are citizens of Heaven therefore we are wealthy beyond measure. Our Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills. We appreciate all of the prayers of support from our fellow Christians, and we are praying for those who oppose us. When we do figure out where we will be meeting, I will save a seat for Curmudgeon, and I will have one of our white foam cups of coffee ready for Anna (hot stuff melts the bottoms out of dixie cups). As in everything, God will provide for His church.

jenksmom, (9/9/2008 5:32:47 PM)

Ignatz, The Kirk's name is on the deed, but the provision in the Presbyterian provision that was inserted states that the Presbytery holds a trust interest that if the church leaves the presbytery that all church property goes back to the Presbytery. The Kirk filed the suit to eliminate the trust issue. That is what was lost today. It is being appealed and we knew there was a chance that the Kirk would lose the property, but given the facts...we were hopeful that the congregation would keep the property as the Presbytery has not been a source of funding or support - it was the other way around given the size of the church. I have attached the Kirk press release below - go to thekirk website for the original as well as the Presbytery press release.
FORMER DENOMINATION TAKES PROPERTY FROM
LOCAL CHURCH
Kirk of the Hills loses two year legal battle
Tulsa, Okla., September 9, 2008 – Tulsa County District Judge Jefferson Sellers ruled today that the Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) and the Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery of the PCUSA (EOP) own the Kirk of the Hills property at 4102 E. 61st Street, under the denomination’s constitution. A constitutional
provision inserted in 1983 provides that the denomination holds a trust interest in the property of a local church, even when the local church bought and paid for the property. The Kirk of the Hills paid for the property over the last four decades and the deeds are in the Kirk Corporation’s name.
The Kirk has been in a legal battle over this property since the Kirk withdrew from PCUSA denomination in August 2006.
“We are disappointed by this decision, but not surprised. We are hopeful that the Oklahoma Supreme Court will correct this injustice.” Co-Pastor Tom Gray said. “All we have wanted was to keep the property we purchased and have considered our home for worship, teaching and fellowship for these many
decades. We will continue to stand firm on the teachings of the Holy Bible and look to the Lord for our strength.”
Glenn Elliott, a Tulsa CPA who is chair of the Corporation’s Trustees, advised that the Kirk of the Hills intends to appeal the decision and will try to work with PC (USA) and EOP regarding activities at the Church during the appeal.
Judge stayed the effect of the decision for 20 days to allow parties to discuss issues related to the appeal process. The loss of the property is sure to impact many in the Tulsa community including:
?? The 2,400 members
?? 175 families whose children attend the Kirk of the Hills Preschool
?? Over 50 families with disability needs that the Kirk assist on a monthly basis

Kirk of the Hills and 23 other churches who left the denomination are now a part of the EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church).
If necessary, the Kirk will make find another place to worship while the appeal is
pending.

committed, Tulsa (9/9/2008 6:15:21 PM)

This is God's punishment for excluding some of God's children.

DesertSally, (9/9/2008 7:55:10 PM)

To the devoted members of Kirk of the Hills, the Lord will richly bless you for standing up for HIS WORD. It is only a building. There are other buildings. Right now is the best time for you to buy a building anyway. Let the PCUSA see just how long it will take them to unload that building in today's economy. Remember! It's not about the money! It's about Jesus.

QuickDraw, Coweta (9/9/2008 8:51:14 PM)

The church (Kirk) is more than just a building. My prayers are with you Kirk of the Hills.

Presbylaw, Bartlesville (9/9/2008 9:38:53 PM)

curmudgeon,
Think of this way, you join AARP, after 20 years, they change the rules to say they inherit all of you property when you die. You try to quit, but the courts say NOWAY. Your children get nothing.

Presbylaw, Bartlesville (9/9/2008 9:45:27 PM)

committed,
You might want to check your fact before you judge. (Judge not...) The only exclusion is from leadership, due to unrepentant sin. So this punishment is like want God did to Sodom and Gomorrah?

Polly Wog, Tulsa (9/9/2008 9:46:32 PM)

Sad story, but as many here said, it will work out according to God's will.

I find it fascinating how many lost souls comment on such stories, illustrating their hatred toward God and all people who love Him. I can't imagine what it would be like to live a life devoid of God, or love, or compassion for my fellow man. How can a person get out of bed every day and know they will seek only their own personal gratification all day?

They'll laugh and scorn, but I'll pray for them anyway....

Ol City Boy, (9/9/2008 10:05:14 PM)

Local Atty. Doug Dodd, who you may remember was on the Tulsa School Board and had an unsuccessful bid for political office, has his fingerprints all over this with the group wanting The Kirk out of its building.

We may forgive, but we will not forget.

Tom / Wayne, our prayers continue to be with you and your families during this ordeal. Your church family feels that you've jointly done the right thing all along for the right reason(s).

007, (9/9/2008 10:08:35 PM)

The Kirk is a great church and alot of different groups of people go there, this ruling goes against all the others around the country where judges are ruling in favor of the local church, why the hE!! should a group that never paid a dime and passed some BS rule without the consent of the other party is wrong, this means that those of us who have legal trusts set up in this state could suffer the same fate by fiat of some other party who came up with some back room rule. I still cannot believe that he ruled this way. Even the US supreme court ruled in 1979 that court should not consider these BS trust laws that are not mutual, this should go all the way to the Supreme Court.

The fact is that if the presbytery of eastern Oklahoma was not losing members right and left and the Kirk except for First Pres. was not paying all the bills for the presbytery they never would have fought this, if they manage to take control of this property they do not have the resources to take care of this property or the mortgage, unless it's from some unsuspecting dead people who left bequest to the presbytery. This is wrong, however the judge ruled like Oklahoma courts usually goes in these cases.

maggie, (9/9/2008 10:12:41 PM)

Does anybody besides me find it interesting that they are so interested in being "Biblical" and yet are fighting so hard for "treasures on earth?" I believe Jesus had a few words to say about that.

In addition, Jesus talked about loving each other--he came to change the law and the ways of unacceptance and punishment of the past. Kirk of the Hills apparently did not get that message either.

When Kirk of the Hills continued as a member of that denomination after the 1983 clause, they agreed to its conditions. It is a contract. While they have contributed much they have also benefitted from the association (and where did they start? That location and building did not just appear.)--now they want to control this branch of the Presbyterian church. They've started a new sub-sect of the Presbyerian church--start over with that--it is a choice they have made and feel led by God to make. Surely, they would want to cast off the goods of the "evil" church they have chosen to leave behind.

Presbylaw, Bartlesville (9/9/2008 10:32:07 PM)

Maggie,
The only voting Kirk did was to stay silent. They are not slaves.
Kirk HAS already moved to EPC (founded in 1980) from PCUSA (founded in 1983).
The members will NOT return to a group that no longer believes in the Bible.
EOP has lost, even if they win. Other churches are angry and afraid of the EOP. This action is driving people away. Even if one family at a time. (totaling 1,000s)
I predict that if EOP wins the appeal, they will sell the church for business use within 5 years.

1st is running this show, as evident by the "representative" from 1st being next to Colter in court today. She speaks at every Presbytery meeting as though she owns the EOP.

Ethics, (9/9/2008 11:14:25 PM)

What happened to personal ethics and conduct? This is a newspaper story written by a reporter, not a church member. A building is just a building and the congregation of Kirk, prepared for either ruling outcome, is not soliciting support. We all have the privilege of expressing views and opinions but the internet has become a medium for anonymous viciousness and slander. All opinions and feelings are to be honored but let's use some dignity.

queenoffrance, (9/10/2008 10:55:02 PM)

When the congregation made the choice to leave the larger church, it was done with eyes wide open, wasn't it? To me, that means you knew you were making a BOLD statement, and you knew the decision meant you were giving up the benefits of belonging, including the use of the property. You left because you think the larger church is wrong to unconditionally accept people you judge as sinners. And you wanted to make a point... in other words, express your dissatisfaction. Then you took a church matter to court (when the consequences of your actions were likely known when you made your decision)? What ever happened to separation of church and state? Find a church that embraces your personal theology, and move on.

queenoffrance, (9/12/2008 8:14:14 AM)

Thanks for pointing out my ignorance, Larry. I thought the Bible was a book, written by Man. I thought the decision of what books to put into the Bible was also made by Man. And, silly me... I thought the Bible has been translated from Aramic, Hebrew and Greek (languages without consonants, or without punctuation, etc... hard to translate).... by Man. I was so ignorant to think that some portions of the Bible didn't even appear in the orginal works, and were only added by scribes or translators. And, I thought the Old Testament contained the law of Moses and the prophets, ancient and cruel in many ways, but there to tell us a story, and the New Testament I thought was the story of the Christian gospels, the epistles and prophetic revelation. I certainly (ignorantly) thought the Bible wasn't the final word on everything.... In my ignorance, I thought God gave me the Bible, my brain, my heart and many other things to help me find the right path in life. Ignorantly, I thought that Man doesn't know completely what God does or doesn't love/hate. And I very ignorantly thought that blindly following the words in the Bible was not the equivalent of being a good Christian, because (again, ignorantly) the Bible we have has is not the complete scripture, it has been translated over and over, and it has been augmented and edited. I also thought that ALL men are sinners, so all pastors are sinners. Thanks, Larry, for the enlightenment, and for pointing out my ignorance so politely.

queenoffrance, (9/13/2008 4:24:54 PM)

No sin in thinking, if I do it right....

"Christian brothers, keep your minds thinking about whatever is true, whatever is respected, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever can be loved, and whatever is well thought of. If there is anything good and worth giving thanks for, think about these things. Keep on doing all the things you learned and received and heard from me. Do the things you saw me do...." Philippians 4:8-9 (NLV)

And, Larry, my vision is not that important to me:

"Our life is lived by faith. We do not live by what we see in front of us." 2 Corinthians 5:7 (NLV)

And, that being said, I think I will bow out of further conversation with you.....

"Watch your talk! No bad words should be coming from your mouth. Say what is good. Your words should help others grow as Christians. Do not make God's Holy Spirit have sorrow for the way you live. The Holy Spirit has put a mark on you for the day you will be set free. Put out of your life all these things: bad feelings about other people, anger, temper, loud talk, bad talk which hurts other people, and bad feelings which hurt other people. You must be kind to each other. Think of the other person. Forgive other people just as God forgave you because of Christ's death on the cross." Ephesians 4:29-32 (NLV)

Peace.