Rex Brinley junior, (9/10/2008 6:44:28 AM)

Folks, you can worship anywhere. Cut your losses and get out of that demon possessed building. God will smite that building with great vengeance. You know what a snake does when you grab it around the neck, it squirms wildly for its life. As for your congregation you will be blessed beyond your imagination, but you must get rid of the shackles of oppression of the presbytery political machine. There is a similar situation at the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma where Antony Jordan holds absolute power over all BGCO churches. He decides to do something and the puppet boards blindly follow. The only way to teach Mr. Jordan a lesson is to withhold CP funding. I know a dozen churches who are doing just that. They are switching to Direct Missions to punish Jordan for spending wildly on luxury vehicles and SUV's for executive and field staff. Churches struggle to make their budgets but Jordan spends money like its his personal piggy bank. I know for a fact that within my lifetime I will see the BGCO file for bankruptcy as or Lord cleans house. This will probably happen with the Presbytery because they have also fallen under the soothing spell of satan.

Bigbadbri, Broken Arrow (9/10/2008 7:00:16 AM)

As 30 year member of the Presbyterian Church, I know a bit about this. Our brothers and sisters at the Kirk knew good and well what would happen. Just because they decided to secede from Presbyterian Church USA does not give them the right to the property. It is retained according to the Presbyterian Church USA constitution because it was those funds that helped purchase the church in the first place. The Presbyterian Church has been trying to work with them in good faith for years but to no avail. It is unfortunate, but this is the path Kirk of the Hills has chosen. How sad.

Ol City Boy, (9/10/2008 7:04:47 AM)

Local Atty. Doug Dodd, who you may remember was on the Tulsa School Board and had an unsuccessful bid for political office, has his fingerprints all over this with the group wanting The Kirk out of its building.

We may forgive, but we will not forget.

Tom / Wayne, our prayers continue to be with you and your families during this ordeal. Your church family feels that you've jointly done the right thing all along for the right reason(s).

ELENA, TULSA (9/10/2008 7:34:33 AM)

It's always sad when these things happen. But when the church strays away from the true Biblical precepts then it may be time for the congregation to abandon this demon possessed building and let the Lord lead them to another facility of his choosing. After all, if the Lord isn't there then there is no reason to stay and every reason to go. I speak from experience. When I left my sisters house, because Satan was moving in, the Lord impressed on me to NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT HOUSE AND IF IT WAS SOLD TO NOT DEMAND MY SHARE. I followed that admonition and have been blessed mightily! So I believe if the congregation goes in obedience to God's command to have nothing to do with darkness, it will be blessed more that it can even think! May God richly bless the congregation of Kirk of the Hills.

ELENA, TULSA (9/10/2008 7:35:55 AM)

It's always sad when these things happen. But when the church strays away from the true Biblical precepts then it may be time for the congregation to abandon this demon possessed building and let the Lord lead them to another facility of His choosing. After all, if the Lord isn't there then there is no reason to stay and every reason to go. I speak from experience. When I left my sisters house, because Satan was moving in, the Lord impressed on me to NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT HOUSE AND IF IT WAS SOLD TO NOT DEMAND MY SHARE. I followed that admonition and have been blessed mightily! So I believe if the congregation goes in obedience to God's command to have nothing to do with darkness, it will be blessed more that it can even think! May God richly bless the congregation of Kirk of the Hills.

tbgalileo, Tulsa (9/10/2008 7:44:38 AM)

Elena, when satan moved into your sister's house, did he bring a U-Haul or does he have friends with pickups? I'll bet he probably takes up too much time in the bathroom (what with polishing his horns and all), but he'd be handy during bar-b-ques.

Seriously folks... this was a civil legal matter. Why do churches feel that they are exempt from the law? KOTH had a contract with the parent organization, they violated the contract, and now they have to move out. It's as plain and simple as that.

BMoore, Tulsa (9/10/2008 7:51:49 AM)

Hahaha!

QLC, (9/10/2008 7:59:27 AM)

Wow Elena, it must be nice in your world.

Church is a business. They must follow business rules. The court cannot find in favor of fairy tales.

John BA, Broken Arrow (9/10/2008 8:08:19 AM)

It is like Wayne Newton saying he owns the MGM Grand in Las Vegas because he entertains there. The Kirk of the Hills property is just an entertainment venue. The Presbyterian Church USA and its Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery are the corporate owners and venue managers. It is their property and they decide who puts on the show, and what kind of show it is.

touitsmrs, (9/10/2008 8:10:02 AM)

After reading your comments I just puked in my mouth a little. Good lord you people are nuts.

TFDGUY3875, (9/10/2008 8:21:18 AM)

Before you render judgement and express truly uninformed opinions, try attending our meeting tonight. It is easy to mock that which you don't understand. By the way, where do all of you attend on Sundays?

jess, (9/10/2008 8:31:47 AM)

Am very proud to be a member of Kirk. We stood up for the Bible's teachings and that will prevail in the long run.
Ever stop to think how this world would be different if the ten commandments were followed?

dhull, Tulsa (9/10/2008 8:34:49 AM)

The denomination (PCUSA) was founded with fundamental core beliefs and values based in Scripture. In November 1961, when the Kirk of the Hills was incorporated, they then agreed with the values and beliefs of the denomination. Since then, the denomination has strayed drastically from those fundamental values and core beliefs. They now directly contradict Scripture in many ways. The Kirk decided that it was better to be in the Lord's will (leave the denomination) than it was to go along having to conform to the denomination's twisted values and beliefs.

It is interesting to note that the Kirk of the Hills has always held the titles for property and improvements to that property (buildings) in the name of Kirk of the Hills and has not borrowed from the denomination to acquire land or construct buildings. The denomination has never held any legal, equitable or other interest in the property. The church and its congregation has paid for everything.

I imagine the denomination was upset because the income in the form of some sort of dues/fees that the church paid to the denomination was cut off when The Kirk left the denomination. And I bet it was a substantial chunk out of thir budget since The Kirk was one of the largest churches in the denomination.

I applaud the Kirk of the Hills for their stance and pray that Lord's will is done. Whatever the decision is, the Lord has His hand on it. His will will be done through Kirk of the Hills whether it is on 61st Street or elsewhere.

John BA, Broken Arrow (9/10/2008 8:55:31 AM)

T-Town Larry - my church is the VFW hall. Same good works, same loving and caring people; and many wonderful things happen daily inside the walls. We all seek our own form of entertainment. The object is for it to make you feel good when you leave. Apparently yours works for you. Congratulations.

maggie, (9/10/2008 8:56:18 AM)

Jess and dhull,

Do you also support polygamy, slavery, and not eating meat of cloven animals? How "Biblical" are you?

Eric, Tulsa (9/10/2008 9:01:49 AM)

It's just a building...brick and mortar, for God's sake!

The good folks at KOTH need to just cut their losses and move somewhere else.

God is EVERYWHERE and is probably happy when we praise God, anytime, anywhere.
We don't need a mad-made structure to worship in.

Graychin, Eucha (9/10/2008 9:11:08 AM)

"Demon-possessed building"? Someone needs to get a grip. I've heard of allegedly demon-possessed people, but buildings?

Maybe they could borrow an exorcist from the Catholics.

I commented months ago that the Kirk's congregation had zero chance of winning this lawsuit, but I was assailed with a bunch of legalistic arguments that ignored the essential fact that the PCUSA owns all the property of its congregations. Sorry, Kirk, but that's the law. Didn't you know that? Or did you let your pastor drive you into an irrational frenzy?

It's a high price to pay for disapproval of gay clergy. I hope it will prove to have been worth it.

matt w, Tulsa (9/10/2008 9:20:07 AM)

T-Town Larry, I don't know John BA and rarely agree with the man, but in this case I will just guess that he is not in church daily because unlike you and your family, he actually has a life and he is out living it.

TFDGUY3875, If I decide to not sleep in, I go to church at Highlan Park Christian Church on 31st street btwn yale & sheridan. Most of the time though I decide to sleep in.

dhull, KOTH broke their contract. It's like breaking a lease agreement, if you break your lease than you get kicked out. Thats what KOTH did so they are getting the boot.

trusting in him, (9/10/2008 9:36:43 AM)

After reading the article, I feel a couple of statements made by Reverend Coulter and Craig Hoster need to be addressed. Reverend Coulter said that all attempts to settle ouside of court were rebuffed by the leadership of Kirk of the Hills. That simply is not true!!! There were many attempts and meetings between a settlement team from the Kirk and Reverend Coulter. Most of those attempts were initiated by the Kirk of the Hills, not Rev. Coulter. A settlement wasn't reached, but the leadership made several attempts!!!!!!!!! Mr. Hoster mentioned in the article that the local church prospers and enjoys the benefits afforded by the parent church. It needs to be said that over the 40 years he referenced, that the Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery and PCUSA were the benefactors of hundreds of thousands of $$$$ given them by Kirk of the Hills. The only money given to the Kirk was in the form of a loan over 20 years ago, and it was paid back and both parties have documents showing this. It could be said that without the apportionments that the Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery receives from its churches, they couldn't sustain an office or pay Reverend Coulters salary!!!!! Who really benefits and prospers?????

aintbutaname, Tulsa (9/10/2008 9:44:14 AM)

"God is EVERYWHERE and is probably happy when we praise God, anytime, anywhere.
We don't need a mad-made structure to worship in."

Thank you Eric, well said, I agree totally.

RMS, (9/10/2008 9:44:48 AM)

It is a sad state of affairs,however it seems that everytime someone disagrees with the dogma of a particular church there is a 'breakaway'. The State of Oklahoma bears witness to this. The main problem is 'too much religion,and not enough Christianity'. May this issue be resolved without rancor.

dhull, Tulsa (9/10/2008 9:48:47 AM)

matt w: I understand why the judgment was made. I am not surprised by the judgment, and I think you'd find that most of the Kirk congregation and pastors are not surprised.

What it boiled down to was this: You either stick to your values, beliefs and the Lord's will and risk loosing your property OR you give in, water down what you believe in, disregard what God's Word says, and keep a building.

This country was founded by people who stuck up for what they believed in. They knew there was the risk of loosing their property, their families, and their lives when they declared independence. But they did it anyway, and our country exisits because they did. Thank God! Granted, this is a different scenerio as the final decision regarding the property was in the hands of one judge, not people fighting a war, but there are definite parallels.

Sometimes there is a high price to pay for taking the high road. The people of The Kirk evidentally value their principles more than a building. Thank God!

matt w, Tulsa (9/10/2008 9:56:31 AM)

I wouldn't go that far dhull, because if they didn't value the building as much than they wouldn't be in the lawsuit right now. They broke the contract so they are getting the boot.

QLC, (9/10/2008 10:05:37 AM)

Relax everyone! It will be taken care of. Just pray and god will do the right thing. MAYBE he/she already has.

tulsaGuy, (9/10/2008 10:07:06 AM)

Kirk leadership did the right thing by leaving leaving the straying-PCUSA. Finding a new church building is likely the cheapest solution. There are lots of spaces in and around Tulsa for the Kirk to go. Likely the only benefactors from this point on are the lawyers. Why take it to the Supreme Court and spend the $ on legal fees? The Kirk congregation will likely better further their cause by purposely losing this fight, moving to a new space, and continuing God's work. It'll be a great testimony to just leave now and not spend the $ on further litigation. Spend it on your missionaries or on your handicapped ministries, not on a high-priced lawyer!!