tbgalileo, Tulsa (12/5/2008 6:45:05 AM)

kerugma: the most logical conclusion? I'm not sure where you get that idea from. I've heard the arguments for creationism, which are usually nothing more than the acrobatic twisting of logic and the misuse of concepts such as "theory" (eg, they talk about the "theory" of evolution, when in fact it is actually a model made up of multiple theories).

I have yet to see any actual scientific evidence that independantly leads to the creationism conclusion. Usually, their arguements are nothing more than attempts to disprove the evolution model. Their false assumption here is that it is a dichotomy, that if they can just shake the incredible mass of evidence supporting evolution, then their worldview must, by default, be true.

And your idea that "scientific theories" should be included in christian schools is funny. I was once passed over for a teaching position at a christian school because I would not teach that "evolution is a stupid idea that people made up to avoid paying for their sins". This was the actual wording from the curriculum at this school, and they couldn't understand how I could not teach this with a straight face.

zzx375, BA (12/5/2008 6:46:46 AM)

Dusenberry expressed the same viewpoint as Richard Dawkins and Dusenberry, like Dawkins, provided no support for their claim.

Which ranks both with the rest of the TW blog opinions.

Another TPS parent, (12/5/2008 7:12:52 AM)

The Hebrew Bible contains ancient stories of the Israelite people. They were told and written down to guide the Hebrew society. It is compelling literature. It should be read in context with a strong relevance to what was happening politically at that time around the Israelite people. In that context is is an historically relevant text for the classroom. It should be read with an understanding that it has a one-sided slant to the facts.

Many societies have creation stories. They are essential to all societies. They lead a people forward with an understanding about where they have been.

Students should be allowed to read the Bible in the classroom as another form of literature. My student who attends BTW has had it included in her curriculum in literature classes many times. Learning about other societies makes her a well rounded adult.

Ayo2, T-Town (12/5/2008 8:08:30 AM)

"They would find out Christians do not have a monopoly on truth or morality."

BYD, that deserves to stand on its' own. Best post of the week.

Another TPS parent, (12/5/2008 8:15:50 AM)

Well, my child's class was not a religious studies class, but a literature class. They were studying different styles of literature. She does however have a copy of the Quran and has studied Confuciusous as well. She has received a well rounded education at BTW. Sure wish every child in Tulsa had the same opportunity.

Another TPS parent, (12/5/2008 8:18:08 AM)

Oh....and she studied genetics/mutations in Biology. So she did get information on theory of evolution.

Frites and Mayo, Tulsa (12/5/2008 8:42:23 AM)

This is one of my favorite debates, yet, it's easier to talk about rather than to write about it. (especially when I am at work).

The thing that baffles me is that creationism stems from people intrepreting the origin of species from religious texts, whether it is Hindu, Christian, or Zoroastrian. These texts were written by people trying to explain their origin, which all are fairly consistent with "man" being from the "Earth". And to make things a little more complicated, there also different kinds of "creationists"...Old Eart, Gap, Day-Age, Progressive, and Neo. It's just too much.
Now, present day, fundamentalist Christians, I guess you could say, interpret the "origin" as documented in Genesis as a literall event that occured within the 6 day time period. I don't say that God didn't create life, but can you truly imagine the creation of the Earth and Life being created and established in 6 days? Maybe in 600 BC, but not 2009. I think all of this is interesting, though, but I can't accept the "theory of creation" as recorded by man as a real scientific approach to explaining the origin of life on earth. Why is it biologic evolution unacceptable for most religious faiths? Is the fossil record not real? Why are there fossils of tree bark, but no evidence of these trees to be found on earth at the present time? or invertabrate fossils? Why are their fossils of this species of tree, dinosaur, or mollusk in this certain rock formation, but no birds? But their are fossilized bird-like animals preserved in this rock? Hmmm. Radiometric dating says that some the earths rocks are approximatley 3.5 billion years old...no how can the earth be 2,000 years old?

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (12/5/2008 8:46:24 AM)

Careful F&M- you are about to get a 3 142 post diatribe answering all of your questions to the tiniest detail..........

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (12/5/2008 8:47:02 AM)

I meant 3 page 142 post diatribe.... more coffeeeeee

Stick61, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:00:10 AM)

F&M's longer post makes very good points.

Stick61, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:00:59 AM)

Yes, Doc, coffee is a good idea.

TonyQ, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:06:46 AM)

All children eventually grow out of believing in santa and the tooth fairy. Unfortunately many adults haven't yet grown out of believing in other equally silly made-up beings.

Frites and Mayo, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:07:20 AM)

Maybe I had too much coffee...or I need some spell check. Embarrassing errors up there.

Stick61, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:09:22 AM)

It's OK, F&M. We know you're smart.

Skeptic, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:11:58 AM)

Oral Roberts' intent with ORU was all about "taking the love of god into everyman's world" (paraphrase). His was a belief that the christian lifestyle could be enjoyed everywhere, in every profession not just as a minister, nurse, missionary, etc. Unfortunately, now it seems that way too many christians have the need to PROVE god in everything. It's so unnecessary. Christianity is just a belief system, after all. If I need surgery, I'm going to worry more about my surgeon's educational successes and less about bible verses he/she has memorized. Christians seem to be so insecure in their own spirituality that they want to force on everyone else. Faith in your own lifestyle belief system (or religion) should remain separate from science. A scientific explanation of creation is no less "christian" than understanding how a heart pumps blood or how birds fly. Stifling scientific curiosity and understanding is an indication of one's insecurity in their own belief system. We don't need that in education.

Stick61, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:14:50 AM)

That's OK about the coffee, Swami. We're generous. What do you drink at this hour?

Ayo2, T-Town (12/5/2008 9:20:18 AM)

Hmmm, based on the population of this morning's posts I would ascertain that creationists like to sleep late.

TonyQ, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:22:40 AM)

Ayo2,

Maybe they're just tired of losing the same argument over and over.

OKLA, (12/5/2008 9:23:37 AM)

Aside from the absurd posts above that contribute nothing to this issue, this is a well presented, thought provoking letter. Some folks just need to grow up.

Stick61, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:29:38 AM)

As far as I can tell, no one is knocking the letter. One of the early posters diverted attention from the letter and the discussion ran in a different direction. Sometimes that happens.

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:33:55 AM)

OKLA- it's a good letter.

Ayo- the the creationsists are probably busy manning the drive thru now, check back in an hour.

Frites and Mayo, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:37:29 AM)

Nope. No one knocked the letter...however, the letter unkowingly severed as a catalyst for a common debate that commonly falls within the realms of "indoctrination and brainwashing".

Frites and Mayo, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:38:26 AM)

crap. served.

Stick61, Tulsa (12/5/2008 9:45:10 AM)

It's too bad that things usually disintegrate into unpleasantness when the subject of origins comes up. As your earlier post indicated, F&M, there's actually a lot to puzzle over and think about.

Ayo2, T-Town (12/5/2008 9:51:49 AM)

Stick..sometimes? LOL