Tulsa World: Debate explores Muslim, Christian relationships

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Debate explores Muslim, Christian relationships

CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE

The Rev. Reza Safa: There “is not a single Islamic nation today that treats Christians right,” he told audience members.

By DAVID HARPER World Staff Writer
Published: 1/26/2008 3:12 AM
Last Modified: 1/26/2008 3:12 AM

Saying Christians and Muslims can be friends, a Muslim scholar from Canada gave 15 reasons why they should to a downtown Tulsa audience Friday night.

But a Christian minister from Tulsa who used to be a Muslim questioned the tolerance of his former religion and asked whether a program such as Friday's, held at the Tulsa Convention Center, could even take place in a Muslim nation.

The Rev. Reza Safa, pastor of Fishermen's House Church in Tulsa, and Jamal Badawi, a member of the Islamic Society of North America Fiqh Council, were the featured speakers at the event, which was sponsored by the Islamic Society of Tulsa.

The debate stemmed from comments Safa made last summer at an anti-terrorism rally in Tulsa. Muslims against terrorism at- tended the rally and reportedly were offended when Safa said Muslims could not be friends with Christians.

Badawi, of Halifax, Nova Scotia, told the crowd that members of the two religions have many reasons to be friends with each other.

Among those he enumerated were a mutual belief in one universal God, a belief in the sanctity of human life, a commitment to justice, and respective teachings of mercy for all.

Badawi said Muslims as a people are imperfect, "but who isn't?"

He said that although some Muslims distort the words of the Quran to support their own agendas, the term "holy war" is nowhere to be found in the book.

Safa countered

that many Muslims apparently do not agree with Badawi's interpretation of the Quran.

Evidently, he said, those people "don't understand the Quran, but Dr. Badawi does."

Safa, who was born and raised in Iran as a Shiite Muslim before converting to Christianity as a young man, said he receives death threats on a weekly basis from Muslims around the world.

He said Muslims can freely claim that Jesus was not the son of God but that everyone has to be extremely careful about what they say about Muhammad or face the consequences.

Badawi challenged anyone to find a negative word about Jesus in the Quran.

A lot of the cause for misunderstandings about what the Quran says lies in the translation of its terms, Badawi said.

He also said that words in Arabic are subject to multiple meanings, which he said can add to the confusion.

Badawi said passages must also be read in the context of the times in which they were written.

Safa projected lengthy excerpts up on the screens inside the Convention Center's Conference Hall to support his arguments.

He said he did this to counter claims that he was only "pulling verses" out of the Quran to support his claims about Islamic intolerance.

Despite Badawi's statements about the common ground between the Bible and the Quran, Safa said he didn't see how the two can truly be reconciled -- particularly on the issue of who Jesus was.

He said there "is not a single Islamic nation today that treats Christians right."

Safa said "religious intolerance is the official state policy" of Saudi Arabia and that for 1,500 years Christians have been persecuted -- some even killed -- in Muslim countries for their beliefs.

Badawi acknowledged barriers that get in the way of friendship between members of the two religions.

Among these, he said, are media stereotypes, a focus on the views and actions of extremists, and what he referred to as "post 9/11 guilt by association."

He said there is no justification in Islam for aggression against innocent people.

David Harper 581-8359
david.harper@tulsaworld.com

By DAVID HARPER World Staff Writer

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	Report Comment don herrold, tulsa (1/26/2008 4:20:03 AM) Weak -- No mention was made that several thousand who were turned away, and the basics of RS' argument were glossed over -- half the truth is a distortion.
	Report Comment John, Tulsa (1/26/2008 7:14:19 AM) Badawi claims the reasons there is a problem with Islam is lies in the translation of its terms from Arabic. This is very misleading. In the Islamic countries the Quran is not translated as Arabic is the norm. In these countries, the official state religion is Islam, Muslims are restriticted or forbidden from changing their religion and minority religions are treated like second class citizens, often forbidden from spreading the word of their faith, building churches and so on. These are facts. Well, that knocks down Badawi's weak argument.
	Report Comment Mary Jane, Tulsa (1/26/2008 7:40:04 AM) The real smoking gun about Badawi are his statements on martrydom in 2006 which are on Islamonline (located in the Middle East) for your review. Google Badawi martrydom, Islamonline His statement, as a Muslim scholar to the Islamic world seriously contradict the Fiqh Council of North America's fatwa against terrorism and extremism in 2005 which bears his name along with other Muslim scholars. The fatwa said that suicide bombing or any other method of attack is haram -– forbidden -– and those who commit such barbaric acts are criminals, not martyrs. This American fatwa directly contradict Badawi's own words about martyrdom: "First, the intent behind that sacrifice is exclusively for the sake of pleasing God and supporting His cause. Second, fighting is allowed only for restricted causes explained in the Qur’an mainly repelling unprovoked aggression or resisting severe oppression. Third, since fighting and martyrdom for that matter involves loss of life, human suffering, and destruction of property, it is a hated act (Qur’an: 2:16). It should be resorted to until all peaceful and just means have been tried to stop aggression or oppression and restore peace and justice. If this is not possible, then fighting and hence martyrdom may be comparatively a better measure than the continuation of aggression and oppression against the innocent."
	Report Comment Graychin, Eucha (1/26/2008 8:14:57 AM) There are some people that Christians just can't be friends with, and it's foolish even to try. I'm glad we've gotten past all that "love your enemies" stuff.
	Report Comment The Oracle, Tulsa (1/26/2008 8:45:55 AM) "I am the way,the truth and the light,and no man comes to the Father,except throughMe"...Man has a free will to believe the inspired word of God or to not believe The Word.Man has a free will and can pick and choose what he wants to believe,and what he does not want to believe.Islam teaches that you are an infidel if you are not a Muslim.When are we going to recognize that Islam teaches that infidels are to be destroyed.
	Report Comment Kathy, Tulsa (1/26/2008 9:15:15 AM) To our Muslim neighbors I'd like to say you live in America where freedom of religion is the real deal - totally unlike most Muslim's countries where Muslims are forced to be and stay a Muslims. In America you can leave Islam on you own free will despite the pressures from your Imam and your family no matter how strong or threatening. there is help out there. True freedom comes, not from conformity to a religion that keeps its followers in chains but by independent making informed decisions. Don't be afraid.
	Report Comment Kate, Tulsa (1/26/2008 11:31:48 AM) First, the debate should have been held in a bigger place like Mabee Center. So many of us were there untill 7:30 pm waiting in lines only to be turned away. Secondly, it is easy for the Islamic rep to claim that misrepresentation of the verses in the Quran createa misunderstanding. That tends to happen where there is no clarity. It is up to their clergy to sit together and discuss what is best and turn and look at how organised and uncontradictory the Word of God is in the Bible. I feel it is simple when we let the Holy Spirit shed light on it as He will continue to.
	Report Comment Muhammad, broken arrow (1/26/2008 12:21:40 PM) Jesus said ,love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself . Muhammad said Love God above all (Allah wakbar) and wish for your neighbor that which you wish for yourself. My father is a muslim and my mother is christian and i love them both the same. When we have faith in God and love in our hearts it does not matter what religion we confess to . If you read the bible from begining to end you will not find a single profet or even Jesus mention a religion , but they all did mention that there is One God and they all served and obeyed Him ,even Jesus said i am here to do The will of the God the Father and not my will. I was born a christian today I am muslim ,and like to say both religion have contradictions on their books ,but there is no contradiction or confusion when we talk about love ,respect ,dignity ,sincerity ,friendship ,character and so on. May God bless the city of Tulsa with peace ,love and harmony between all faiths ,all races ,after all we are all His creation. FK
	Report Comment Blake, Tulsa (1/26/2008 1:07:42 PM) Badawi said there is no justification in Islam for aggression against innocent people. NEW FLASH: This is not what he said on Islamonline in 2006. google: Badawi martrydom islamonline Here you will read what Badawi wrote when martyrdom is OK. Just another contridiction made by Badawi
	Report Comment David Adams, Philadelphia PA (1/26/2008 9:12:25 PM) Badawi has Mohammad's permission to lie to infidels.
	Report Comment mapes, Holsen Creek (1/26/2008 9:51:35 PM) Mohammad tells his faithful to spread Islam by the sword if nothing else works. Also according to the Quran: It is okay to lie and break contracts, agreements, and treaties if it furthers the domination of the world by Islam. Islam is a physical religion. All it's rituals are a physical show to satisfy strict rules enforced by threat of physical punishment by roving bands of Islamic law enforcement agents. This is much the same as the bloodlust of the Catholic religion during the Inqusitions. Catholocism was and still is a very physical religion with physical rituals, as a show of compiance to law enforced by Priests and Nuns. The Christian worships GOD in spirit and truth. "True religion pure before GOD is to take care of widows and orphans and keep ones self unspotted by evil." (That's not a verbatum quote from the New Testament, but it's accurate in meaning.) Christians are told to: "Turn the other cheek", "pray for those who spitefully use you", "Love our enemies" "GOD is Love.", and that: If we want forgiveness? We must forgive others." Allah wants blood. The Christian GOD wants Love. The dishonesty of Islam makes it impossible to trust the muslim world. And if the muslims don't stop being violent and start being honest? The rest of the world is going to stamp Islam out, like the plague. That's my opinion!
	Report Comment Slime, Tulsa (1/26/2008 10:26:56 PM) "All the killers were chrstian....The nazi system was the consequence of a movement of ideas and followed a strict logic; it did not arise in a void but had its roots deep in a tradition that prophesized it; prepared for it, and brought it to maturity. That tradition was inseparatable from the past of christian civilized United States of America."
	Report Comment John Cole, tulsa (1/26/2008 10:36:33 PM) Pastor Reza was an embarrassment to the christians, I was really embarrassed. First he mentioned that christians cannot live in any muslim country, I visited egypt last year, and saw really beautiful churches, and their clergy walking with a black like dress and a huge cross in the streets with no body killing them, or even bothering them. He mentioned that 137 Christians were killed in Saudia Arabia, I searched every news source, that was no where to be found. The argument was supposed to be theological, pastor safa was very combatant, and he lied on many parts, playing the fear card. He was indeed an embarrassment to every Christian. I think he came across as ignorant, an educated person. On the other hand, badawi was challenging his arguments from theological point of view, I think badawi should have stood there and gave examples of great muslim contribution to the humanity in science, and math. The numbers we use are arabic numbers, after deserting the latin numbers. Even Algebra is named after Jaber, an arab, and a muslim mathematician. Most of what I know is in the field of math. I think badawi could have done a better job, instead of sticking to text from the quran, pastor reza was very ill educated in islam, so he resorted to a news report. definitively, they could have used a bigger hall. I used to listen to Pastor Reza and others, but I really wanted a theologian discussion, rather than a news report from pastor Reza. Pastor Reza lost my respect.
	Report Comment Douglas, Sapulpa (1/26/2008 10:54:47 PM) Reading the comments from Christians who want Moslems to be more tolerant. I wonder how many will not vote for Mitt Romney just because he is a Latter-day Saint? How many will not vote for Hillary because of her sex? How many will not vote for Obama because he is black? Islam was once the most tolerant of religions. Christian cities threw open their gates for the Moslem conquerors because of the oppression the suffered from the Catholics and Orthodox churches. Today Islam is a backward cesspool in many places because of jealousy and king making. Heads are chopped and tongues removed for the smallest of offences. Islam is also reacting to the evils that are pushing into the forefront of the world. How many Christian churches practice gambling (bingo) and poor dress and musical standards? Everyone needs to read their Scriptures a little more carefully and practice what’s in there. Practicing what is preached is getting the world into a dangerous situation. Hypocrisy is the prevailing pulpit practice. The rise of the religion of social and natural Darwinism is the result. Hypocrisy and atheism is the new world order. Both Christians and Moslems will need the sword to hold back the tide if the are unwilling to change.
	Report Comment Slime, DOUGLAS (1/26/2008 11:03:16 PM) I agree.
	Report Comment Bob Roberts, Broken Arrow (1/26/2008 11:25:00 PM) John Cole, the following is directly off the U.S. State Department Travel advisory site (just google US Consular Affairs) regarding Saudi Arabia. Please read carefully. SAFETY AND SECURITY: In the most recent Travel Warning for Saudi Arabia, the Department of State continues to warn American citizens to defer non-essential travel to Saudi Arabia due largely to targeted attacks against American citizens that have resulted in deaths and injuries. There have been a number of anti-Western attacks in Saudi Arabia since May 2003. Terrorists have targeted housing compounds, businesses, and Saudi government facilities with vehicle-borne explosives and automatic weapons, causing significant civilian deaths and serious injuries; and in separate incidents have held hostages and killed individual Westerners, including American citizens. STANDARDS OF CONDUCT AND RELIGIOUS POLICE: Islam is the official religion of the country and pervades all aspects of life in Saudi Arabia . Public display of non-Islamic religious articles such as crosses and Bibles is not permitted. Travel to Makkah ( Mecca ) and Medina , the cities where the two holiest mosques of Islam are located, is forbidden to non-Muslims. End Quote! I am glad I live in a country where Muslims CAN practice their religion and have their Mosques and get protection from our government. But I can't take a Bible or Cross inside Saudi Arabia? Can anyone say INTOLERANT?
	Report Comment Slime, Tulsa (1/26/2008 11:30:11 PM) Can anyone say Indian extinction by the American christians. Yaaaa!!!!
	Report Comment Imran, Broken Arrow (1/26/2008 11:39:37 PM) It was very clear that Pastor Reza was promoting hatred and divsion and Mr Badawi was emphasizing on unity and friendship. Pastor Reza appeared ignorant as compared to his counterpart who looked very educated and knowledgable. I agree with Mr. John Cole's comments that Pastor Reza was indeed an embarrassment for Christians. There was never a more need for dialogue between Muslims and Christians. I hope Christians can find a better and well educated person to represent themselves in future who should know what he or she is talking about and is truthful.
	Report Comment Douglas, Sapulpa (1/26/2008 11:39:43 PM) Thank you Slime. I do disagree with your earlier comment in one respect. A Christian is a follower of Christ. This would mean that Christians do not commit murder. A Christian may kill to defend home, loved ones, and self IF THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE, but a Nazi or Darwinist cannot be a Christian, no matter how often they go to church. Those who judge others and those who practice intolerance are also not Christians even if they are a pastor or pope. God said "I will forgive whom I will forgive but ye must forgive all". Jesus said, "As I have loved you, love one another" and "Judge not lest ye be judged". People who claim to be Christians but do not practice it are not followers of the Christ and may even be compared to anti-Christ’s for the damage they do to Christ's church. I was in Kuwait during 9/11 and experienced more love and sympathy from Moslems there than I did when I was around the Moslem extremist in the streets of London or back home from Christians in America.
	Report Comment Ahmed Kiyagi, Tulsa (1/27/2008 12:08:15 AM) IMRAN BRINGS UP GOOD POINT. BADAWI IS MOST INTELLIGENT ISLAMIC DEBATER IN NORTH AMERICA. SAFA IS JUST A HUMBLE EVANGELIST TURNED PREACHER. AND HE STILL HANDLED BADAWI AND WON THE DEBATE EASILY! NO ONE BOUGHT BADAWI'S ARGUMENTS FOR ONE SECOND. CONGRATULATIONS PASTOR SAFA
	Report Comment Penelope Walton, Copan (1/27/2008 4:42:54 AM) I am glad this meeting was held as dialogue/debate is better than swords. It should be in a place where everyone, who wants to. can attend. Whether or not we agree with one or the other, the viewpoints need to be out in the open on all sides. It is better to talk and agree to disagree than to kill. Thank God for America and our forefathers who wrote the Constitution and for our WONDERFUL freedoms. We should all be grateful.
	Report Comment Bob, Huntsville (1/27/2008 6:33:04 AM) Did no one else notice "the elephant in the room"? Tulsa World announced "the elephant" on January 19th: "Security will be tight Friday night at a debate between a Muslim scholar from Canada and a former Muslim, now a Tulsa Christian pastor." "Metal detectors will be set up at the entrance; no recording devices will be allowed in the room; and no cell phone use will be allowed, Siddiqui said. Tulsa police, convention center security and Christian and Muslim peacekeepers will monitor the crowd." Did they ever! When we arrived at 6:30 PM, we saw something like a couple thousand people waiting patiently in long, long lines for a slow, detailed, BODY search. There were no metal detectors, like at airport security. Instead, you stood with arms out while the guards waved the wands all over you and inspected the contents of all purses. If you had a camera, you couldn't get in with it. There were only three body searchers for the waiting thousands. The Tulsa police, and even a bomb-sniffing dog, were right there. The debate started soon after 7 but at 7:30 they finally announced that the place was full and some 1500 people left. MEANWHILE, HUNDREDS OF HOCKEY FANS WALKED RIGHT ON BY US DIRECTLY INTO THE HOCKEY ARENA WITH NO SEARCH WHATSOEVER ... ... while our line moved less than 200 feet in AN HOUR as we're waiting to get into this debate so carefully and painstakingly arranged by The Islamic Society to prove and demonstrate the peacefulness of Islam. BY INSISTING ON THIS RIDICULOUSLY TIGHT SECURITY, DIDN'T THESE DEAR, WELL-INTENTIONED PEOPLE LOSE THE DEBATE RIGHT THERE? Was all this security there to keep out all the Christian suicide bombers? In my opinion, its sole purpose could only have been to protect peaceful Badawi from Islamists who disagree with his "Islam is Peace" philosophy. When we finally got in, we heard Safa agreeing with Badawi's many peaceful statements, even arguing that we should persuade him to publish his English translation of the Qoran. Unfortunately, as Safa pointed out, the people running the 51 countries where Islamic and Sharia law are enforced use the Arabic original Qoran as their justification to continue to persecute, jail, torture, and kill many millions of my dear brothers and sisters in Christ. As Moslem birthrates and Islamist violence gradually overwhelm France, the U.K., other countries, and eventually the U.S. in Islam's relentless drive to create a world caliphate, do you think all these peaceful Moslems here in Tulsa will still be here for us when it's our turn to become their subservient dhimmis?
	Report Comment wmcol, Tulsa (1/27/2008 7:14:27 AM) Douglas, it is good to hear another teach keeping the Sabbath, avoiding adultery, graven image, and keeping the Commandments, as did Jesus who commands us to do so if we are to be Christ like in our practices.
	Report Comment Yakov, Tulsa (1/27/2008 7:50:31 AM) Interesting that the Quran tells Muslims in Al-Maeda 58 not to be friends with Jews OR Christians. So apparently Mr. Badawi doesn't even believe what Muhammad had to say. Additionally it is proven by their actions via their gross intolerance. i.e. Sudan. Notice the multiple death threats at the prophetofdoom website. One is even from a US government email address. Even in the Gaza strip where most Gazans live under duress together Christians are required to accept Sharia or be persecuted. The Quran requires non-Muslims to pay the Zakat tax. In Bethlehem the Christian population has shrunk to a fraction of its size. Due to Muslim persecution they are leaving. The Shia kill the Suna and vice versa. The question is not can Christians and Muslims be friends but can Muslims be friends with ANYONE who disagrees with them as a whole. I have individual Muslim acquaintances I consider friends. But the religion as a unit demonstrates otherwise. Christianity has had its dark side but has come through it. Why can't Islam leave the dark ages?
	Report Comment Yakov, Tulsa (1/27/2008 9:48:04 AM) Correction to my feedback, thae zakat is the charitable contribution , a tenent of Islam. I meant the jizya tax which is paid by non-Muslims. Sorry.

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