DowntownNow, (9/9/2009 6:55:25 PM)

And May couldnt have said it any better himself:

“You don’t get into politics to win every race,” said Stan May, president of the Firefighters Local 176. “You get into it to influence decisions of the politicians now and in the future.” - As in when its time for budget reviews, independent audits and investigations into wrongful conduct on the part of some (not all) of your membership.

“Basically, we look at candidates that are friendly to our causes and the overall picture,” he said. - Apparently anyone wanting a few days to really look over the numbers is someone that's not friendly to their cause and the 'overall picture.' That's called being fiscally responsible, particularly in times of economic uncertainty and taxroll decreases.

Tulsa is in for a treat if it allows the Unions to act in this manner...they are public servants first and foremost, prohibited under the Charter from actively campaigning outside of stating they personal opinion - when asked.

I hope the Council moves to ask the AG for an official opinion on this before it gets out of hand.

u cant be serious, (9/9/2009 7:25:03 PM)

maybe you should look at some legal precedents. The constitution supercedes some archaic city charter. There have been several legal battles nation wide over this, and guess what the firefighters have won EVERY SINGLE ONE. Get over it and let us have our right to free speech.

Norm, (9/9/2009 7:25:40 PM)

Ok - they're supporting David Patrick, who resigned because his son is a firefighter - and according to the city, the son cannot be a firefighter if the dad is a councilor.

So - is young Mr Patrick going to resign if his dad wins?

u cant be serious, (9/9/2009 7:31:33 PM)

if u dont like it downtownnow maybe u should organize the people u work with and go campaign for your candidates.

u cant be serious, (9/9/2009 7:34:28 PM)

does anyone actually research facts anymore. you cannot be a police officer if your daddy is a councilman. And Martinsons son lost his job because his daddy wouldnt resign from a part time councilor gig to save his sons career. Does that tell you something about him? Wake up people!!!

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 1:13:45 AM)

U cant be serious...and believe me, few will take you as such when you can't research your facts. It was Councilor Rick Westcott's son that was not able to complete his hire after finishing 2nd in the academy. Here the Charter made no reference to it but a section of the State Nepotism law was used in defense of not hiring the younger Westcott. Aside from the fact that Councilor Westcott could have and would have resigned to allow his son to be hired, the younger Westcott had already rushed and signed an oath that stated he was not related to any City officer, therefore the harm had already been done and not amount oh resignation on Rick Westcott's part could have undone that.

What we have with regards to the FF's pursuit in actively campaigning is a difference of opinion between legal professionals. The best advice in that situation is to obtain an OKLA AG's OPINION so as to have the matter settled once and for all for future elections.

So next time around U CANT BE SERIOUS...actually research the facts yourself before trying to sound intelligent on here.

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 1:18:07 AM)

NORM...the difference here is in the wording. State Nepotism law dictates that "no elected or appointed official or other authority of the municipal government shall appoint or elect any person related by affinity or consanguinity within the third degree to any office or position of profit in the municipal government."

The big question here is in the interpretation since Council members can not and do not have the authority under the City Charter "to appoint or elect" any person to an office or position of profit within the City government. Hiring and firing of classified employees isnt domain of the Mayor and designated department heads (i.e. Chiefs).

Again, good try U CANT BE SERIOUS.

Eagle 4, Tulsa (9/10/2009 7:37:04 AM)

If Republicans truly have a fear of socialism, they need only look at this situation - socialist workers unionized and united to gain poltical power - sounds more like Germany.

Not even a whimper from Tulsans? Must be the uniforms. Obama should get fitted soon if he's serious.

u cant be serious, (9/10/2009 7:49:14 AM)

you are correct on Westcotts son. sorry my mistake. But he was let go because HE LIED on his application when asked if he was related to anyone at city hall. Sounds a lot like Daddy to me.

wk, (9/10/2009 9:27:14 AM)

Seriously - a bunch of guys who like ping pong and eating are setting the agenda on city politics. Please people think a little before you let the firefighters union pick your city leaders.

tnt091605, (9/10/2009 9:36:52 AM)

This was already decided. That city employees can campaign, but not not in uniform and not while working. The unions do not control the vote. The citizens control the vote. Anyone. Anyone! Should be allowed to voice their opinion on any matter. It is protected by something called the constitution!

CimeFighter, (9/10/2009 9:39:47 AM)

Norm, (9/9/2009 7:25:40 PM)
Ok - they're supporting David Patrick, who resigned because his son is a firefighter - and according to the city, the son cannot be a firefighter if the dad is a councilor.

So - is young Mr Patrick going to resign if his dad wins?

I believe you cannot be hired while he is a councilor. Once hired your family can run for office. I think it is to stop relatives for being hired as favors to the councilors.

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 10:02:48 AM)

U cant be serious - so we have an individual (young Westcott) who was let go because he lied on an oath, in a haste, likely didnt read it all, rushing out the door - but nevertheless, he made a mistake, owned up to it and accepted the consequences - commendable.

But you have emergency medical techs that were deemed by the Oklahoma State Department of Health's investigation to have clearly falsified records pertaining to CEU credits over 12 years that enabled those certified EMTs to retain bonus certification pay as a result - but no firings of even one of those officers eh? Can you say 'double standard'?

And don't tell me that its okay, they all passed a subsequent re-evaluation - they got a do-over by the adminstration and the department, nothing less. So why didn't young Westcott? Its because we taxpaying citizens expect to hold public officers to a higher degree of professionalism and ethics, and while I dont feel young Westcott's actions were nearly anymore serious than those of the EMTs that blatantly falsified their records, he accepted responsibility.

If you would like to read the OSHD investigative report for yourself as part of your research before offering an opinion, you can find it at the Tulsa Council web site, under current agendas, Special Meeting, 01/22/2009 in a DPF document in the highlighted backup copy

Instead, your 'brothers' cry foul and want immunity if to report for the investigation - immunity from what? Clearly makes it sound as if there is something they fear being held accountable for.

To knowingly falsify records is a grave matter in the eyes of the public trust. To accept bonuses from that falsification in a time where a budget is stretched thin and questioned only to be brow beaten into acceptance is wrong and then to cry for immunity from prosection during a necessary investigation to restore the public trust in 'their' department is absurd.

And I say 'their' department, meaning the taxpayer's department - not the Unions department. The union above all must be reminded that you answer to the taxpayers and not the unions heads. Hopefully someone soon will have the fortitude in public office to do just that.

JDH, Tulsa (9/10/2009 10:13:53 AM)

Downtownnow, I do believe that it was found to be a matter of record keeping and the people responsible have been retired or otherwise moved out of these positions. This satisfied the OSHD, why does it not satisfy you?

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 10:42:59 AM)

No, the department and the adminstration found it to be a matter of 'record keeping'...the OSDH as far as I have found, has not offered a report outside the conclusions stated in their November 2008 report. Are you aware of a report that stated the OSDH was satisfied?

Additionally, the City Council for the majority was not satisfied either and instructed the City Auditor to conduct an investigation, one that met with attempts to block its exercise. One that merited the EMTs under scrutiny to demand immunity from the investigation'f findings. That report and investigation has not been concluded yet either.

But JDH...you didnt answer the same question posed to U Cant Be Serious...why is acceptable to fire young Westcott for essentially the same thing and not opkay to fire the officers in the FD that falsified their records?

Additionally, I dont call that real discipline outside a slap on the wrist to shuffle FD management in same level or higher positions, retire two with I'm sure full pension and benefits intact and written reprimands in others jackets. You want true discipline and consequenses...show me the TFD is capable of holding their officers to the same level of consequences as that of young Westcott and then we can call it fair and resolved.

JDH, Tulsa (9/10/2009 11:04:07 AM)

No, I haven't seen anything else from the OSDH. Can't say I've looked. I do know that EMSA's medical director at the time was satisfied when everyone retested and passed, along with the improvements in record keeping. I also have seen nothing else from the OSDH on this at all, positive or negative. If there was still a problem, wouldn't they still be on it?

You keep saying "young Wescott." It was just a youthful indiscretion, you think?

owen, Tulsa (9/10/2009 12:40:36 PM)

Just out of curiosity--Has anyone actually come forward publicly to accuse the firefighters of the threats that they supposedly made about burning houses? I remember that a councilor said that he had been contacted by constituents but I don't remember seeing any proof. It appears to have been mentioned and then dropped. Makes me wonder if it ever happened.

Blesstguy, Tulsa (9/10/2009 1:44:11 PM)

I believe that they are taking it all too personal. I thought it was a raw deal that "young" Wescott got after finishing the tests and requirements for the police academy training. It was only a few days before graduation. Why wasn't this looked into prior to being accepted for the program because Rick Wescott was already on the council. Bad on the city admin, let the young buck do his job, if they haven't noticed we are losing the battle with crime here Tulsa!

Now I'm going to address the unions doing campaigns for or against certain canidates. Well welcome to the good ole USA. There are so many precidents where city and county and federal enities have tried to enforce taking away 1st admendment rights of freedom of speach. As long as they are not doing such things while being paid by that enity they are not breaking any laws, period.

Instead of this bickering between individuals lets try to find solutions to the major problems this city is enduring at this time. Unemployment is rising as well as violent crime. We need to come together and find some fixes quick.

That is the thing I haven't heard from any of the canidates. They talk about why they are better than the other but who is for something that might possibly work in making this Tulsa better!

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 2:25:49 PM)

JDH...I made reference to young Westcott's ordeal after U Cant Be Serious (either a union employed FF or someone acting like one) decided to use that as an attack on Martinson and the reason for his being personal in his campaining against Martinson. Shameful thing is...it wasnt Martinson's son but Westcott's.

Taking it further tho, this self proclaimed FF decided young Westcott got what he deserved and that the actions of his father on the matter had bearing on him as a Councilor, so I had to point out that he created a double standard. According to this campaigning FF, its was okay to fire younger Westcott for an indiscretion but not okay to seek out an investigation and hold those EMTs responsible that had knowingly falsified CEU credits for the last 12 years by seeking to fire or punish them.

Sorry, the FF union doesnt get to have it both ways. In the case of the falsified training records, there was knowing and intentional malice by EMTs to misreport and further claim unwarranted bonuses for certification. It took one of their own to come forward and question the practice...and they want to chalk it up to 'no harm, no foul'?

And why are they so afraid of a thorough investigation if there is nothing malicious to hide?

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 2:33:18 PM)

BlesstGuy..I wish younger Westcott was able to join the force as planned. We need good officers like him more than ever. The unfortunate thing is, he signed under oath a false statement. Now he acknowledged that, took ownership of it and accepted the consequences. I sincerely hope he can put the excellent training he received in the Tulsa Academy to good use in another police force. But, by signing that false oath, he had already committed a grievous, albeit more than likely a youthful indiscretion. His signing that false oath could have repercussions later as to officer credibility, honesty, etc when questioned. Its a shame, but some lawyer would grab that and use it to the fullest, all for a simple indiscretion.

Now as soon as someone (such as our self-described 'esteemed' City Attorney Deidre Dexter) gets an AG's opinion on the classified officer's rights to actively campaign and that the City Charter is wrong, I will be happy to back off the rhetoric...but until then, what is the point of a Charter is no one is going to hold those bound by it accountable?

JDH, Tulsa (9/10/2009 2:59:05 PM)

Downtownnow, all I can say is that if the Medical Director whose license they work under is ok with them, I'm ok with them.

As far as Westcott's son goes, I feel bad for him, but his dad was a cop and a city councilor and should have known when he applied that he should step down. When your dad is in the papers and on the news, they had to have known that is was something that would not have been hidden forever.

u cant be serious, (9/10/2009 3:02:10 PM)

downtown I never said he did or didnt deserve to be fired. That is a lie downtown. I think nepotism laws are outdated in todays litigious society anyway. As for the investigation into ceu's the parties responsible have been let go or forced to retire. Do you suggest we fire the whole department because dates were not kept on training? Sounds like you have a serious and personal axe to grind with the fire department, just like a FORMER city councilman. Is that you Bill?

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 7:22:06 PM)

JDH...no one knew, neither Councilor Rick Westcott, Chief Ron Palmer, Mayor Kathy Taylor nor City Attorney Deidra Dexter until it was mentioned there was a possible conflict by Fire Chief LaCroix just prior the academy graduation. Rick Westcott had offered his resignation but in light of the oath that was incorrect and already signed, the damage was done and Rick Westcott was right to keep his seat on the Council.

The ME may be fine with it all but as a tax paying citizen I, and many others that posted about this issue, are not. The report from OSHD stated that none of the EMT personnel interviewed could truthfully account for all the CEUs written in their reports. All reported that they were instructed to fill in the dates on the list of classes they were given. A Haz-Mat class for 12 hours was told to he investigators to be made up.

In the end, the OSHD report found that the fire department had violated OAC 310:641-5-14-(a)(1) "Applicants (not their supervisors) shall submit on and application form porvided by the Department, true, correct and complete information as to eligibility and character. Incorrect or incomplete information shall be cause for rejection."

So in other words, these EMTS that falisified their training records knowingly did so of their own accord and should be held accountable and subject to forfeiture of their bonuses based on the incorrectly and fraudulently earned CEU credits. They should be fired in the same light as that of young Mr. Westcott for failing to correctly sign an oath stating the same elgibility.

To date, two top ranking fire officials were forced to retire, most likely with full benefits and pension. Three other ranking officers were shuffled into other same-level positions, without a cut in pay or benefits I'm sure. So where exactly is the accountablity? If the unions say they want to be treated fairly, then that goes both ways. If the City, their employer, demands an investigation to determine if fraud actually occurred, the EMTs that apparentlt did nothing wrong should welcome it to clear their names. Instead, the cry out for immunity...kinda telling.

DowntownNow, (9/10/2009 7:24:37 PM)

u cant be serious, (9/9/2009 7:34:28 PM)
does anyone actually research facts anymore. you cannot be a police officer if your daddy is a councilman. And Martinsons son lost his job because his daddy wouldnt resign from a part time councilor gig to save his sons career. Does that tell you something about him? Wake up people!!!

You began this rant with this ill-researched statement and used it to question the character of a Councilor you falsely indentified as being at some kind of fault.

u cant be serious, (9/10/2009 7:29:41 PM)

You really do really have an axe to grind Bill. Or is this Rick. You need to check back with the Oklahoma Dept of Health whoever you are. At no time was anyone without a license and at know time will anyone lose their license over these errors. The only ones that havent moved on and closed this issue are a couple of council members.