Dee, westchester (10/23/2007 10:20:37 PM)

Hmm Eric you think people are as ignorant as you think? sighhhhhhhh .I have read and re-read your quran .And you know ? the more i read the more i dreaded knowing what it teaches.

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (47:4).

Islam, Allah, Mohammad, Muhammad, mullah, imam, jihad, Muslim, Koran, Quran, sunnah, hadith, ummah, haji -- these are all words for the same problem. If a muslim is devout, he or she must be a terrorist by definition. Islam and its terrorism is incapatible with peaceful civilization.

J.R, Bixby (10/23/2007 10:21:39 PM)

By Ted Sampley

U.S. Veteran Dispatch

January 2007

Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the Muslim book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United

States during his ceremonial swearing-in.

Capitol Hill staff said Ellison's swearing-in photo opportunity drew more media than they had ever seen in the history of the U.S. House. Ellison represents the 5th congressional District of Minnesota.

The Quran Ellison used was no ordinary book. It once belonged to Thomas Jefferson, third president of the United States and one of America 's founding fathers. Ellison borrowed it from the Rare Book Section of the Library of Congress. It was one of the 6,500 Jefferson books archived in the library.

Ellison, who was born in Detroit and converted to Islam while in college, said he chose to use Jefferson's Quran because it showed that "a visionary like Jefferson " believed that wisdom could be gleaned from many sources.

There is no doubt Ellison was right about Jefferson believing wisdom could be "gleaned" from the Muslim Quran. At the time Jefferson owned the book, he needed to know everything possible about Muslims because he was about to advocate war against the Islamic "Barbary" states of Morocco , Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli.

Ellison's use of Jefferson's Quran as a prop illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the United States, but, which today, is mostly forgotten - the Muslim pirate slavers who over many centuries enslaved millions of Africans and tens of thousands of Christian Europeans and Americans in the Islamic "Barbary" states.

Over the course of 10 centuries, Muslim pirates cruised the African and Mediterranean coastline, pillaging villages and seizing slaves. The taking of slaves in pre-dawn raids on unsuspecting coastal villages had a high casualty rate. It was typical of Muslim raiders to kill off as many of the "non-Muslim" older men and women as possible so the preferred "booty" of only young women and children could be collected.

Young non-Muslim women were targeted because of their value as concubines in Islamic markets. Islamic law provides for the sexual interests of Muslim men by allowing them to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as their fortunes allow. Boys, as young as 9 or 10 years old, were often mutilated to create eunuchs who would bring higher prices in the slave markets of the Middle East . Muslim slave traders created "eunuch stations" along major African slave routes so the necessary surgery could be performed. It was estimated that only a small number of the boys subjected to the mutilation survived after the surgery.

When American colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. With no American Navy for protection, American ships were attacked and their Christian crews enslaved by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the "Dey of Algiers"--an Islamist warlord ruling Algeria.

Because American commerce in the Mediterranean was being destroyed by the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate treaties with the four Barbary States . Congress appointed a special commission consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, to oversee the negotiations.

Lacking the ability to protect its merchant ships in the Mediterranean, the new America government tried to appease the Muslim slavers by agreeing to pay tribute and ransoms in order to retrieve seized American ships and buy the freedom of enslaved sailors.

Adams argued in favor of paying tribute as the cheapest way to get American commerce in the Mediterranean moving again. Jefferson was opposed. He believed there would be no end to the demands for tribute and wanted matters settled "through the medium of war." He proposed a league of trading nations to f

Osama the Christian, (10/23/2007 10:23:49 PM)

Eric,

The Qur'an forbids terrorism and the killing of innocents, does it? You are quite mistaken.

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter." Qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land." Qur'an:7:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them." Qur'an:8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam." Qur'an:8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy." Qur'an:9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Eric, terrorizing and killing innocents is at the very heart of Islam. If you reject this mandate, you reject Mohammad as a false prophet, and if you do that, you deserve hellfire: Qur'an 4:114 "He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell." Are you prepared to run that risk???

JR, Bixby (10/23/2007 10:26:01 PM)

Continued:

force an end to Muslim piracy.

In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams, then the American ambassador to Britain , met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain .

The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress' vote to appease. During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why Muslims held so much hostility towards America , a nation with which they had no previous contacts.

In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."

For the following 15 years, the American government paid the Muslims millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800.

Not long after Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, he dispatched a group of frigates to defend American interests in the Mediterranean, and informed Congress.

Declaring that America was going to spend "millions for defense but not one cent for tribute," Jefferson pressed the issue by deploying American Marines and many of America 's best warships to the Muslim Barbary Coast.

The USS Constitution, USS Constellation, USS Philadelphia, USS Chesapeake, USS Argus, USS Syren and USS Intrepid all saw action.

In 1805, American Marines marched across the dessert from Egypt into Tripolitania, forcing the surrender of Tripoli and the freeing of all American slaves.

During the Jefferson administration, the Muslim Barbary States, crumbling as a result of intense American naval bombardment and on shore raids by Marines, finally officially agreed to abandon slavery and piracy.

Jefferson's victory over the Muslims lives on today in the Marine Hymn, with the line, "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli , we will fight our country's battles on the land as on the sea."

It wasn't until 1815 that the problem was fully settled by the total defeat of all the Muslim slave trading pirates.

Jefferson had been right. The "medium of war" was the only way to put an end to the Muslim problem. Mr. Ellison was right about Jefferson . He was a "visionary" wise enough to read and learn about the enemy from their own Muslim book of jihad.

I'm not a religious person, but I'm sure glad Thomas Jefferson didn't have a bunch of white flag waving liberals trying to convince him to throw flowers instead of cannon balls at these animals. If he had, I have little doubt all of our women would be in burkas and we'd each have 4 of them. Wow! So much for the woman's movement, breast cancer research, and two family incomes. From what I'm reading above, it could still happen. Read the book Mr. Duncan. I have to agree with the bleeding hearts above, failure to know history dooms us to repeat it.

Eric , Tulsa (10/23/2007 10:28:10 PM)

I've lived in the Middle East working for a local oil company. I got to know the Koran very well during those years.

You wouldn't see one of their "elected" officals take a Bible.

Well, this is a Christian nation folks, and a Christian state.

The Koran and its teachings of hate, jihad, death and oppression have no room here.

Congrats on taking the right stand Mr. Duncan and not submiting yourself to such evil.

L Whitman, Tulsa (10/23/2007 10:29:13 PM)

Bush has indicated that he is doing God's will with the invasion of Iraq. As a result, over one million Iraqii *civilians* have been killed, within their own country.

Christian murder may be a bit more subtle, so we don't call it murder. We use war as our excuse, not aiming (no pun intended) to kill civilians (oops, sorry, but it's war - can't be helped), but the victims are still just as dead as the people who have been killed by followers of Islam.

And the news about the number of Iraqii deaths is buried somewhere in the newspapers when it's there at all. Hardly a day goes by in our country when we aren't reminded of 9/11.

Our country invaded their country and we're killing their people - innocent people. How can that not be murder? Millions of Christians use their faith and belief in the Bible as the justification for their support in this war . . .

The offer of the Quran was a gesture from a segment of our population. It was not a request for Rep. Duncan to convert to Islam nor to endorse the faith in any way. It was just a way of one group reaching out to share their faith. It should been accepted in the same manner it was offered - a mutual respect for one another.

Mr. Duncan's refusal served only to hurt the thousands of Muslims in our community who are good people & upright citizens, as well as add more fuel to the fire for those who already had enough hate for us - the very *tiny* percentage of Muslims who do hate & kill in the name of their religion. Neither outcome is anything to be proud of.

shane, tulsa (10/23/2007 10:32:31 PM)

some of the comments on the post are downright scary. i didn't know that people still acted this way, i thought we had progressed pass out right stupidity long ago.

Didn't what's his face bomb abortion clinics in the name of the lord. Eric ?

shane, tulsa (10/23/2007 10:33:44 PM)

I thought this was a good article:

Killing in the Name of God: The Problem of Holy War

By Dr. David L. Perry

Adapted from an Ethics at Noon presentation given at Santa Clara University on 25 September 2001.

In spite of the many differences among Christians, Jews, and Muslims, they share a fundamental belief in God as compassionate and just. As a result, those communities have often nurtured people of extraordinary kindness and courageous commitment to justice. In contrast to the deep hatred that obviously inspired the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the vast majority of Muslims, like their Jewish and Christian counterparts, are appalled and sickened by terrorism, and utterly repudiate the mass murder of innocent people.

Why then do some members of those same communities believe that it is their moral obligation to wage aggressive holy war, even to annihilate innocent people in God's name? What aspects of their scriptures and traditions tend to support violence against "infidels"? What ethical principles--religious and non-religious--can we affirm in response to those ideas and the atrocities that they sometimes engender?

Religion is clearly not the only catalyst of total war and other forms of indiscriminate violence. People seem to be able to invent all sorts of rationales for mass killing without feeling the need to cite the will of God. For example, just a few days prior to the September 11 attacks, two young men from the Sacramento area each killed half a dozen people, apparently out of personal revenge. And some of the most appalling atrocities in history have been rooted not in religion per se but rather in racial or class hatred. There may even be a genetic tendency in our species, like that of our chimpanzee relatives, to attack and kill others for no reason except that they aren't "one of us." (Wrangham and Peterson)

But religious violence can take on a particularly intense and ruthless character, if the objects of that violence are seen as blaspheming or insulting God, as the enemies of God or God's way narrowly conceived. The problem of indiscriminate holy war is particularly difficult for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to eliminate from within because it's so deeply rooted in their scriptures and traditions. The same religious traditions that affirm God to be compassionate, merciful, and just, also include more disturbing claims that promote religious hatred and intolerance, and sadly have provided a rationale for aggressive holy war. We need to face these things head-on. Questioning the moral justification of holy war leads, moreover, to troubling questions about the legitimacy of some basic theological claims and the authority of foundational religious scripture.

Most of my comments will be about Christianity, but I'll start with the Hebrew Bible, since it is considered sacred by all three traditions.

One of the Mosaic commandments prohibits murder (Exodus 20:13). Why is murder wrong, other than its obvious conflict with love of neighbor (Leviticus 19:17-18, 33-34)? Essentially because people are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27, 9:6). One might infer from that idea that no killing of persons would be allowed at all, that the concept of human beings as made in God's image would entail strict pacifism, an absolute duty not to kill people. But that is not what the ancient Hebrews concluded, since many offenses were subject to capital punishment, a form of killing (see examples in Exodus 21-22). So perhaps we might interpret the image-of-God idea to mean, All persons have a basic right not to be killed, but they can forfeit that right if they commit a serious enough crime. This would also be consistent with punishing only those guilty of crimes (Deuteronomy 24:16) and limiting the use of deadly force to the defense of innocent others or oneself. This is probably what most Jewish people would affirm today.

But collective punishment and indiscriminate war were also commanded or approve

Osama the Christian, (10/23/2007 10:34:25 PM)

Hey Ted,

Do you think that Ellison would care to be reminded of the Barbary history, or of the fact that Islamic slavetrading has persisted to this day in Africa?

And al, Mohammad fits the psychotic bill to a "T": delusions of grandeur, hearing "voices" and seeing "visions," yep, Mo could have benefited from anti-psychotic meds. Too bad they weren't available.

AM, OKC (10/23/2007 10:48:08 PM)

Good for you Rex. Keep up that narrow mind. If you accepted the book, god forbid you may have read it and maybe, you would have learned about their beliefs before bashing them. I say lets get rid of the first amendment so these muslims would have to leave our free land. How do these muslims dare to offer you their most valued possession as a gift? How could such evil people be so nice to you? I tell you, we do not have enough red necks in our country. Thank you for your ignorance.

dp, Tulsa (10/23/2007 11:36:17 PM)

L. Whitman – When and where did President Bush “indicate” that he is doing God’s will with the invasion of Iraq?

True, there have been a number of civilians killed in Iraq, PRIMARILY because the Islamic terrorists hide in civilian neighborhoods. The cowards will not fight on a real battlefield. And, if you would be honest with yourself, you would admit that the cowardly Islamic terrorists have killed the majority of their own civilian brethren with suicide bombs (both human and car bombs). So don’t give us a pseudo “oops sorry” comment when the blame is on the other side. Your hatred of President Bush is far too evident in your message.

If there are thousands of Muslims in our community who are good people, why are they not speaking out publicly and denouncing the “”tiny”” percentage of Muslims who hate and kill? Seems to me that the tiny percentage controls the majority of Muslims.

I do not see the offer of a Quran as “one group reaching out to share their faith”. It is more an act of provocation or a grandstand publicity stunt! It is fairly evident from reading the posts herein that the “faith” of Islam is one of murder.

Ralph, Socorro (10/24/2007 1:57:38 AM)

Mr. Duncan is right. In the Quran, it does state to kill the infidel if he will not convert. There is no interpretation needed, only a willing person to carry out the supposed "words of God from the supposed angel Gaberial".

Yes, religions have in the name of Christ attacked and killed, but where are Christs words that tell them to do that? There are none. So you supposed educated people, get rid of your prejudices and learn Truth. Also Mr. Duncan is exercising his First Amendment rights. One more thing. When the Bibles were passed out, it was a civilian group that did it, not a government official. Think about it.

9th generation AMERICAN, Alton (10/24/2007 2:16:20 AM)

I vote to send all those "muzzies" back where they came from, or, if they were born in this country and they want to live in an Islamic state, send them to Iran or some other Muslim country. Let em pull their crap there.

Truly belive that I have just said what a lot of Americans are thinking.

Frank, (10/24/2007 2:58:43 AM)

Finally, someone with a spine. Thank you! Oh, and to our Muslim friend passing out the books, if I can not hand out bibles due to liberal nut cases neither can you!

LRC, Baghdad (10/24/2007 3:14:52 AM)

L. Whitman stated:

Bush has indicated that he is doing God's will with the invasion of Iraq. As a result, over one million Iraqi *civilians* have been killed, within their own country.

When the actor Tim Robbins stated on national TV a few months that there have been over 400,000 civilian deaths in Iraq since the beginning of the war he showed he only showed his bias and ignorance as you do. Now you’re going to up that death total by 600,000 in less than 3 months since he made that idiotic statement.

Organizations that are watching, and are not friendly to the current administration by any stretch, report the current deaths at 72,000 – 80,000. If you’re going to throw a lie out there at least try and be a little closer to the facts.

iraqbodycount (dot) org/database/

Again, people foolishly want to throw out past wars, the crusades, abortion clinic bombings, the Timothy McVies’ and Jim Jones of history as comparable to the Islamic Jihad. Islamic Jihad is COMPELLED by the Koran. No where in the bible does it compel Christians to kill, enslave, and subjugate non-believers if it does, show the verses. History is replete with incidents where murderous intent was carried out by Christians. Even so, there is no question that even though were claimed to have been driven by their faith they, nor anyone else, could show what teachings gave them that direction. Hitler is thrown out there, Hitler was not a Christian he was a pagan at best.

Since 911 there have been just under 10,000 Islamic terrorist attacks, how many Christian ones? Thereligionofpeace (dot) com

I know and work with Muslims here everyday. Even they will admit, one on one, that that the Koran is filled with authorizations from Allah that compel Muslims to kill, or subjugate, non-believers.

It’s amazing to me that because a person will not tolerate being lied to and deceived about what is inherent in a religion, people within our society will automatically label that person as a bigot, racist or intolerant of others. When Islamic scholars will openly and honestly discuss the abhorrent content that is in the Koran then and only then can the rest of the world be ready to accept the Muslim.

We are a nation that has accepted people of all nations into our fold as it should be but never blindly.

Osama The Christian has posted verses from the Koran in here exactly as it is in the Koran, but yet people are not willing to accept the truth of it. A Muslim post here gives a definition of infidel that is wrong and that it’s something else but yet provides no verses to prove his definition. Ones telling the truth with verses, one tried to deflect with a self initiated definition without showing the actual verse. Where is the honesty and where is it not?

Buy one, research it online – jihadwatch (dot) org, carm (dot) org, Google “jihad” or “the Koran” etc. , at least educate yourself and not willingly follow along.

Ben, Michigan (10/24/2007 4:00:53 AM)

I agree with Duncan, but I would not reject a free Qur'an. Having already read it, he should have passed it on to someone less informed. You can Google USC-MSA and read the Qur'an on line. You can also read Sahih Bukhari's books of Jihad, Khumus & Expedition which are necessary to properly understand the Qur'an. You can also read Reliance of the Traveler elsewhere on the web and learn that the Caliph makes war on Christians and Jews as a regular matter of course. I have quoted and linked to it at Go Burn With Muhammad which you should read if you believe the Ulama's letter to Christianity is a peace bid. You can find full documentation of the facts by searching for The Roots Of Islamic Terrorism at Blogspot.

Cindy, (10/24/2007 4:38:28 AM)

Finally, a real man and patriot. Islam has deeply wounded America; we have forgotten. While all are not our enemies perhaps, do we have to make nice with the symbol of their faith, the very book that they justify 911 with? Do your homework and you will see. No; America is still comfortable so we will not look. If Islam rules in this land, you will not have freedom to worship as you please or if you do not please to. Open your eyes America; we need more men and women with backbone, not more men and women graciously accepting this book. How foolish are we.

MArk, (10/24/2007 5:02:22 AM)

As a Christian I've read many passage in the Bible advocating the stoning of women and children (as well as men). I and most other Christians have never practiced this and look on this as something of a byegone era. I know many who neither practice nor condone such behavior. Some Muslims believe in killing in the name of Allah. Some Christians continue to kill on behalf of Christ. Bur Jesus said "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Tim, (10/24/2007 5:34:18 AM)

It never ceases to amaze me that so many posters keep comparing the actions of Western states in the middle ages as being comparable to the actions of Islam today. Things have changed in the West in the past 600 years. But Islam has not changed in 1600 years, its just using modern weaponry. The reformation changed the West when Luther made people think and read the Bible rather than listen to the Popes. There will not be a reformation in Islam; the ones reading the Koran are the terrorists. The nice Muslim down the road is cultural rather than religious and is not reading the Koran!

Lajaw, (10/24/2007 6:06:18 AM)

I don't live in OK, but this makes me want to move there. I wish more states elected officials would take a stand like this man. This country might stand a chance of survival if it was so.

Osama the Christian, (10/24/2007 7:44:09 AM)

LRC,

Thanks for your post and support! I expect that there are lots of Muslims who would rather tne Qur'an and Hadith were not jammed full of injunctions for violent conquest and subjugation of "unbelieving infidels," but as Seirafi-Pour said (above), “The Holy Quran is the record of the exact words revealed by God through the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad,” therefore NO REDACTING ALLOWED, YOU HELLBOUND APOSTATES!!!......How do Muslims know that the Qur'an is the word of God perfectly revealed? Why, it's because Mohammad said it was, and this model human being would never, ever lie!..... Qur'an 2:106 "When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one." [Or:] "Whatever Revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute something better."....

Qur'an 5:41 "Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them."

Chris, Arlington, Va (10/24/2007 7:49:30 AM)

Many of you NEED a history lesson. Go to thereligionofpeace dot com for the truth about islam. Read Adam Spencer's line by line Blogging the Quran. The facts are undeniable and anyone who says otherwise is just a sheep spouting leftist propaganda without doing any real research.

joe simons, tulsa (10/24/2007 7:50:13 AM)

What's left out of the Tulsa World story, strangely, is the coercive nature of the offer of the Quran to the legistators. A thinly veiled threat of a memo was included citing to the effect, 'if you do not accept this Quran we will include your name on a list and provide it to the Tulsa World', supporting the sadly, and all too commonly held religious tenant of the political left that the greatest evil is the unwillingness to be diverse.

Chris, Arlington, Va (10/24/2007 7:54:03 AM)

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

steve bensen, tulsa (10/24/2007 7:56:47 AM)

Why are liberals so dense? We are not fighting Iraqis in Iraq. We are NOT at war with Iraq. We are helping the Iraqis defend themselves from totalatarianism. And the Iraqis are winning, with our help.

Why do liberals insist on not understanding anything that is going on? It is like they think it is admirable to be stupid and misinformed.