Graybeard, Tulsa (6/26/2009 9:18:45 AM)

Mr. Obama promised a lot of things to the American people. He promised "Change". I fear much of the change we will not like. So DT......get off your chair and speak to your Senators and Representatives....I do. We all must take a stand for what we believe in and for what is right and just....and not let someone jam an edict or law down our throats.

Ed 8 R, Non (6/26/2009 9:26:39 AM)

Come on "DT" is that the best you can do? You Chad Smith, Mike Miller spin doctors need to start looking for a real job. The so-called Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma has just had their cover pulled away and now the World can plainly see the nasty deed in which they are engaged. Again you attack the messenger, Mr. Echohawk, for doing his job according to law. Got some news for you DT and the other interlopers that are attempting to divert public opinion from the truth. Federal Court will not be considering your propaganda. The Courts will rule according to law. The same law this well founded decision compiled by Mr. Echohawk presented.

Ed 8 R, Non (6/26/2009 10:35:30 AM)

I see where you stand Whatie, right behind the horse's tail with a bucket of cold water just after breeding. Please excuse my crude example but a splash of cold water immediately after copulation does two things. One it instantly removes the obvious transpired action but at the same time seizes the seed for gestation. You spin doctors think you are clearing evidence of the penetration by Mr. Echohawk,s decision but only help to make fast the seed of truth regarding the status of the so-called Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. Was that too exciting for you, from where you stand Whatie?

Ed 8 R, Non (6/27/2009 5:35:27 PM)

Mike Miller said; “This letter does not have the force of law.” I have to ask; what makes Mike Miller qualified to make such a determination? Mr. Miller is 100% white and claims Cherokee Citizenship due to his ancestor’s purchase of Cherokee Citizenship. Mr. Miller is not a lawyer but is a paid PR spokesperson for Chad Smith and the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. The Echohawk letter does have the force of law. Mike Miller’s statement is propaganda and is just outrageous! I cannot believe the CNO cronies are actually espousing such nonsense and even dare to characterize a formal legal opinion of a federal agency clearly setting forth a legal decision on the merits as not being "law." They are scoundrels or idiots or both! Consider the hypocrisy; a recent issue concerning term limits where the opinion of Diane Hammons granted Chad Smith the ability to run for 4 consecutive terms where the CNO constitution limits terms to 2 was treated as law. Now in the CNO press we see Hammons saying, “Echohawk is wrong.”

“He’s just wrong,” she said. “He couldn’t be more wrong. We’re sorry, but he’s gotten some bad advice from some of the people in his office.”

So I ask you who has credibility? Who do you believe?

Ed 8 R, Non (6/28/2009 7:38:29 PM)

And I quote: "Stupid is as stupid does" - Gump -

Here we have several no-named pundits of a racist administration illegally claiming the sovereign status of the Cherokee Nation spewing negative over the credentials and reputation of John Echohawk.

Again I ask you; Who are you going to believe?

Ed 8 R, Non (6/28/2009 8:06:27 PM)

Here are just some of Echohawk's accomplishments:

John Echohawk, Executive Director of the Native American Rights Fund, will deliver the keynote speech at the Eleventh Annual Martin Luther King, Jr. Commemoration at Utah Valley State College.

Echohawk will also accept the second annual Martin Luther King, Jr. Award for the Advancement of Justice and Human Dignity on behalf of the Native American Rights Fund (NARF). NARF, founded in 1970, has been involved in legal battles concerning treaty enforcement, federal recognition of tribes, land and water-rights claims, and other issues facing American Indian tribes and individuals. His alma matter, the University of New Mexico Law School, notes that NARF and Echohawk have "been involved in most of the major Native American litigation" since the 1970s.

Echohawk was a co-founder of NARF and has served as its Executive Director since 1977. A member of the Pawnee Tribe, he is also on the board of organizations such as the Natural Resources Defense Council and the National Center for American Indian Enterprise Development.

The National Law Journal has consistently named Echohawk one of the 100 most influential lawyers in the nation, and he has received a number of national awards from human rights groups and other organizations, as well as speaking frequently at colleges and other forums.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 10:46:19 PM)

Ok DT you want to cite cases and then expect the world just to except what you say they conclude as if there were no opposition or other understanding of the same cases. So here I will cite some cases and show you that the CNO Courts are a farce and my conclusion only validates the statement that the CNO is not the Cherokee Nation as the Cherokee Nation is constituted, a democracy with three branches, and formed by the people for the people. The CNO has no Court and is dominated by a tyrannical dictator. The Cherokee People never participated in the formation of the CNO. The CNO sprang from the presidential appointment chief for a day without a link to the government our ancestors established. I say this because any ruling by the CNO Court would be "patently violative of express jurisdictional prohibitions" found in federal law. Blue Legs v. United States Bureau of Indian Affairs, 867 F.2d 1094, 1097-98 (8th Cir. 1989); see also, North States Power Co. v. Prairie Island Mdewalanton Sioux Indian Community, 991 F.2d 458, 462-63 (8th Cir. 1993); United States v. Yakima Tribal Court, 806 F.2d 853, 860-61 (9th Cir. 1986). In other words, since Congress expressly abolished the Cherokee tribal courts in the Curtis Act of 1898, which was expressly reaffirmed in a duly ratified agreement between the Cherokee Nation and the United States in 1901, the powers and jurisdiction of the CNO Courts are expressly limited by federal law to those which an internal administrative dispute resolution forum could assume. Curtis Act, June 28, 1898, ch. 517, 30 Stat. 495, § 28 (providing that “all tribal courts in Indian Territory shall be abolished, and no officer of said courts shall thereafter have any authority whatever to do or perform any act theretofore authorized by any law in connection with said courts . . . .”); 31 Stat. 848 (1901) (agreement reaffirming abolition of Cherokee tribal courts). It is true that the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and the United States Government entered into the “Self-Governance Compact” in 1990 pursuant to 25 U.S.C. § 450, which provided in Section 3 of Article I that “the powers and decisions of the Nation’s Court shall be respected, to the extent that federal law, construed in accordance with the applicable canons of construction and Title III of P.L. 100-472, is not inconsistent.” CNO Self-Governance Compact art. I, § 3 (1990) (emphasis added). I contend, however, that the quoted language from the Compact constitutes an ultra vires administrative recognition of the CNO tribal forums as lawful courts contrary to federal statute and actually confirms that CNO tribal courts have never been statutorily re-established following their abolition by the Curtis Act of 1898. Act, June 28, 1898, ch. 517, 30 Stat. 495, § 28. Furthermore, Article VII of the CNO 1975 Constitution appears to treat CNO dispute resolution forums, including the JAT, as an administrative tribunal, rather than a court of law, by expressly providing that the CNO Tribal Council “shall generally follow” Oklahoma Administrative Procedure Act procedures as codified in “Title 75, Oklahoma Statute, 301 et seq.,” as the means of insuring that “any litigant receives due process of law together with prompt and speedy relief . . . .” 1975 Cherokee Nation Okla. Const. art. VII; Oklahoma Administrative Procedure Act, Okla. Stat. Ann. tit. 75, § 301-323 (West 2001). Strangely, Section 318 through 323 of the Oklahoma Administrative Procedure Act provides procedures for judicial review of decisions of state administrative agencies. Id. at §§ 301-323.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 10:47:39 PM)

THE REST of MY POST
Thus, if the command in Article VII of the CNO Constitution were interpreted literally, the determinations of CNO Courts are actually the determinations of a tribal administrative agency and are themselves subject to tribal judicial review by a duly constitute tribal court. Consequently, the jurisdiction of this tribal dispute resolution forum to perform functions and issue rulings as a duly constituted, federally authorized tribal court is open to serious question. Without a judicial branch you have no Nation and CNO is still just a corporation DT.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/4/2009 10:41:10 AM)

So you say DT. DT's view of what can be drawn from Hodel or any Court case is just that; a vision produced by the DT's. Legal experts with law license not on the CNO pay role have a much different view. People like Larry EchoHawk, for example, say the Curtis Act disables the CNO Courts. Even I can read well enough to know that you are assigned and paid to try to overcome any statement that exposes the FRAUD perpetrated by Chad Smith and his CNO cronies. You may be telling yourself that good old Ed 8 R is keeping DT on the CNO tit. However, you should keep in mind what we have seen with Made-off and others. Chad will not go down without the company of those who were his accomplices. Can you read the signs DT?

Ed 8 R, Non (7/1/2009 8:26:57 PM)

Ok, I’ll try to explain it to you in a simple way so you can understand. The Cherokee Nation or the true government of the Cherokee People from time immemorial does not require permission from the USA to exist or to continue to exist. The BIA and Mr. EchoHawk cannot terminate or destroy the Cherokee Nation. Now this is the part you have trouble with; the CNO is NOT the Cherokee Nation. This controversy is about whom the BIA and the Federal Government will recognize as the Cherokee Nation. EchoHawk has correctly and truthfully pronounced the status of the CNO as the successors in interest as is any entity with membership made up of descendants of the original enrollees of the Dawes rolls like the UKB. Mr. EchoHawk correctly pointed out that the government-to-government relationship was maintained since the time of the Dawes Commission with those original enrollees of which there are no more. Initially this was accomplished with an appointed Chief for the day and eventually with Milam and then Keeler as permanent appointed Chiefs. In 1975 the Cherokee Nation of OKLAHOMA was devised as a mechanism to continue the practice of the “Chief for a day” dominance of the Cherokee People. DT you forget that all the instances you site were during a time when there were still original enrollees that had the legal and recognized powers of citizenship established by the Dawes Act. Today, there are no more Dawes enrollees, just successors in interest in the view of federal law. So the Cherokee Nation that the BIA has been dealing with no longer exists. The Cherokee Nation not the CNO still has it’s right to exist and function. Anytime the Cherokee People will rise together united and assert that right it will be recognized by the United States and the World. However, the fact remains that the CNO is NOT the Cherokee Nation as it is founded on fraud. All of the acts involving the CNO representing itself as the Cherokee Nation are fraud. All who have been actively involved in the perpetration of this fraud are subject to the appropriate federal penalties.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/2/2009 8:35:39 AM)

Reality Check! DT, as long as you refuse to face the fact that CNO is not the Cherokee Nation you will continue to wonder in confusion. I just hope that others that read your words are not following you over the falls. It is important to remember that the CNO is very different from any of the Five Tribes and your attempt to lump the CNO into their status is just more fraud. Because the Cherokee Nation or the CNO has not reorganized under the OIWA and the effect of the 1970 PCA has resulted in limited federal recognition to the popularly selected Principal Chief. Since the time of Keeler, the last Chief directly appointed by the president, we have seen the Fed’s continue to treat one person as the representative of the original enrollees of the Cherokee Dawes rolls. This is very different from the other OIWA Tribes including the UKB. That’s right, I am saying that the CNO is only the corporate structure devised and directed by the CNO CEOs. That’s Swimmer, to Mankiller, to Byrd and now Smith have been considered by the Feds to be the ONLY representative of the original enrollees for purposes of the day to day relations. Everything else is just fluff for appearances. AND in the course of all of this much fraud has been committed. Please don’t be fooled by the mentality of Hitler and or the Mafioso to believe that the victims of CNO fraud might be prosecuted along with the perpetrators of fraud. That’s the old “let’s hang together or we will hang separately” adage. Good Luck with that!

Ed 8 R, Non (7/2/2009 10:45:10 PM)

Did it take you all day to come up with all that? Running in circles chasing your tale just burns up a lot of time. You could avoid all that by returning to the issue and focusing on the fatal error you are making DT. Again, You the CNO are not the Cherokee Nation. Until you manage to get your mind around that FACT all of your citing cases and legal theory mean nothing. You don't like EchoHawk's decision but that has no effect on the REALITY of it. You the CNO and ALL concerned will conform to the impact of EchoHawk's decision until such time as it is altered by Federal Court. Your great fear and the thing that motivates you to continue to post all the rambling nonsense is the prospect that the Court will confirm the EchoHawk decision.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 8:49:10 AM)

Considering that the CNO is REALLY NOT the Cherokee Nation you provide nothing with which to respond. I see the UKB officials are over at the complex measuring the drapes.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 11:10:34 AM)

DT you're being so childish. You say that I said something I did not and then say that citations from Court cases say what they do not and then challenge me to cite where the BIA head is above the law and I have never claimed that to be the case. What I do say is the CNO is not the Cherokee Nation and you have failed to prove otherwise. Remember DT this is like proving Cherokee blood you have to have one ancestor with it. The CNO has no ancestry before 1975 but it is suspected that the illegitimate Chief of the day appointed by the president is the father of the illegitimate child CNO.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/3/2009 1:07:14 PM)

Yes, I refute everything you said DT. The Court cases you cite are real but what you say they mean are fantasy. Anyone can cite Jack v Jill and say that this case defies gravity so now prove me wrong. That is not an adult conversation even if it is clouded with dropout legaleeeeeeeeeees.

Ed 8 R, Non (6/28/2009 9:51:16 PM)

How much more can you stand whatie?

You want to be funny too?

Put up the resume of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith so we can compare them to Mr. Echohawk the one they want to discredit.

Ed 8 R, Non (6/29/2009 8:37:33 AM)

Woops! How stupid and silly of me to make such a mistake. I hope no one thinks I was avoiding Larry Echohawk's record for comparison to that of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith. So here's Larry:

Larry EchoHawk (born August 2, 1948 in Cody, Wyoming) is an attorney and legal scholar. On May 20, 2009, Echowawk joined the administration of US President Barack Obama as the head of the United States Bureau of Indian Affairs.[1] He served as Attorney General of Idaho from 1991 to 1995, the first Native American elected to a constitutional statewide office.
EchoHawk was raised in Farmington, New Mexico. He attended Brigham Young University on a football scholarship (playing as a safety), then received his Juris Doctor degree in 1973 from the University of Utah and entered law practice in Salt Lake City, Utah. In 1977 he became general legal counsel for the Fort Hall, Idaho-based Shoshone-Bannock Tribes.
A Democrat, EchoHawk entered politics in 1982 by winning a seat in the Idaho State House of Representatives from Bannock County. Four years later he was elected Bannock County prosecuting attorney. In 1990 EchoHawk was elected Attorney General of Idaho.
EchoHawk served as national co-chair in 1992 for Native Americans for Clinton-Gore and was a principal speaker at that year's Democratic National Convention.
In 1994 EchoHawk announced his candidacy to succeed fellow Democrat Cecil D. Andrus, who was retiring as Governor of Idaho. EchoHawk decisively defeated former state senator Ron Beitelspacher and an unknown candidate in the Democratic primary, fueling speculation that he could be the nation's first Native American governor. However, he was defeated in the general election by the Republican candidate, former Lieutenant Governor Phil Batt. EchoHawk has not been a candidate for public office since.
Shortly after his 1994 defeat, EchoHawk accepted a faculty position at Brigham Young University's J. Reuben Clark Law School. In that capacity he taught courses in criminal law, criminal procedure and federal Indian law. He has also published several scholarly papers.
EchoHawk is the senior partner of EchoHawk Law Offices in Pocatello, Idaho. He is admitted to the bar in Idaho, Utah and California. He is a member of the Pawnee tribe and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Echohawk joined the LDS Church at age 14 in Farmington, New Mexico. He has served as a stake president, bishop, and as member of a high council. At the time he was elected State Attorney General in Idaho he was serving as a member of the board of trustees of LDS Social Services.
Larry and his wife Terry currently live in Utah. They have 6 children and multiple grandchildren.

Ed 8 R, Non (6/29/2009 10:39:50 AM)

Ok DT, so now are you going to provide the record of Mike Miller, Diane Hammons and Chad Smith so that we can see who has credibility and the record that meets your standards? Also, I notice that you refer to yourself as "we". Is it fair to assume that you are admitting the these messages from DT, What the, and others are from Mike Miller's PR Department of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma?

Ed 8 R, Non (6/29/2009 11:11:27 PM)

Oh sure DT that was funny. It was about as funny as your attempt legitimize the CNO. How quick you forget. The CNO did NOT have government to government relations continuing before the USA was the USA. That belongs to the CHEROKEE NATION which you the CNO PR Department are NOT. So Chad and Dianne know better than Larry Echohawk but who else with real law credentials and real experience in real Courts will say that the head of the BIA decision does not have the rule of law. Will Chad and Dianne or even you dare to say that ALL will not honor this decision until overruled by a Federal Court? How's that for funny? The CNO will see UKB land gain trust status, smoke shops open and other great advances while the CNO spends millions of Cherokee funds fighting in Court. That's so funny I'm crying...

Ed 8 R, Non (7/1/2009 11:26:51 AM)

DT your old tactic of restating the issue into a form in which it was not presented is the typical modus operandi of you CNO CON men. Mr. Larry EchoHawk has not done or said anything that diminishes the status of the CHEROKEE NATION. The fact that you want everyone to not see is that the entity you represent is NOT the Cherokee Nation. You are a corporate entity established in 1975 in an attempt to circumvent a Federal Court Order in the Groundhog case that forbid the continuing practice of the Presidential appointment of Principal Chiefs. The result was the 1970 Principal Chiefs Act and the CNO was formed to give the false impression of compliance. So when you point to events like the Arkansas Riverbed settlement you are merely saying; see they believed our lie here and here so it must be true now. That is the Adolph Hitler method and is desperate and shameful. Mr. EchoHawk has in his lawful decision correctly established the CNO as successors of interest equal to the UKB with one big exception. You the CNO are not an OIWA Tribe. So remember when you say that you are the Cherokee Nation you must provide evidence that your so-called government has the continuing link back through the ages with the Cherokee Nation and you cannot do that.

Ed 8 R, Non (7/1/2009 4:36:19 PM)

Forgive me DT if I do not allow your ploy to confuse the issue with my mistake on Larry EchoHawk’s name to distract me. I will go right to the heart of your pitiful attempt to bounce back from the spanking you received this morning. Until you face the fact before you that CNO has no valid claim to the rights and respect due the Cherokee Nation you cannot lawfully address the dilemma in witch you find yourselves. Your arguments about the resultant confusion producing federal documentation that indicate CNO might be the Cherokee Nation are pointless until you overcome that one devastating fact. What you and all the CNO CON men should be concerned about is how you will avoid the sever penalties that come with perpetrating FRAUD against the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

tao4mind, Enid (6/26/2009 8:13:35 PM)

Hole in the sky.

missy,,,m, no thanks (6/26/2009 12:15:51 PM)

Ha?

TK1, (6/27/2009 2:10:27 AM)

Lightning, when you hope Christians burn in hell, does that include Native American Christians?

TK1, (6/27/2009 7:58:11 AM)

So Lightning, your answer to sins against Native Americans is to condemn their offspring to hell?