a disciple, Glenpool (10/1/2009 5:14:55 AM)

I would like to correct one myth that continues to come up in discussions. Timothy McVeigh was not a "fundamentalist Christian." In news articles published while he was still alive, he confessed to being agnostic.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 6:58:27 AM)

I commend his bravery, because unless he was clueless about Islam, he knew the mandate for apostates is death.

I pray for his safety, and hope the local authorities take these threats seriously and do all they can to protect him and his family.

Atheism is even more absurd than Islam. To suggest everything in the natural world was created from nothing is impossible and irrational. You can quibble over which faith offers the fullest understanding of the true God, Who in His wisdom designed all things, but you cannot deny an intelligent being created everything, or you're left with nothing. Atheism is intellectual emptiness.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 7:21:05 AM)

"Quran teaches in chapter 2, verse 256, 'Let there be no compulsion in religion.'"

If he's up to snuff on his knowledge of Islam, he'd know that later teachings of Mohammed are considered to supercede earlier "revelations." To get the final word from Mohammed, you've got to know which books were written in which order chronologically, because later writings, which contradict earlier ones are considere the authoritative final word--as if truth can change. This is more evidence of the absurdity of Mohammed's claim to receiving revelation from God. It wasn't an angel that delivered the Koran to him, it was either a demon or his own imagination.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 7:48:43 AM)

In the Koran, chapter 9 (particularly verses 11-12) it mentions how apostates are to be treated. Also in the Hadith, which Muslims consider to be an additional authoritative guide to faith and practice, it says:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

I offer these to help us be sober in our approach to Islam in the U.S. There may be individual peaceful Muslims, but there is no peaceful Islam. We shouldn't hate Muslims, but love them, take pity on them, and pray for their freedom from Islamic captivity.

Jester1969, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 7:58:06 AM)

Basil,

You seem to have knowledge of the Muslim faith, so I have a question. If you are born of a Muslim father, are you considered to be a Muslim?

Tony G, Tulsa (10/1/2009 7:59:42 AM)

The only TRUE force in the universe is GRAVITY. Anything else, cannot be proven.
The idea that Christians, Muslims, and other religious groups, use their MAN written text, to control the masses, and committing violence against those who don't believe in their views, is sickening. That those groups, allow fundamentalist
to control the whole group, is sickening.

I believe in God, but gave up on religion.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 8:37:00 AM)

Jester,

Muslims believe all children are born into Islam, which translated means "in submission to Allah." They would say it's through the child's parents or other circumstances that they are taken away from Islam.

In the Orthodox Christian understanding of the human condition, we agree that all children are born innocent and closely united to God, but our view of God is so different than the God described in Islam, that it cannot be said these are the same God. One is best defined as Love; whereas, the other inspires uncountable vile acts, and even attempts to make Muslims believe these actions are good and justified to spread Islam.

Our enemy is not flesh and blood, and we shouldn't hate anyone. God didn't design us to hate anyone--if we do, that is a distortion of our true nature. God desires the healing of us all, not the murder of so-called infidels or apostates. He is patient to give us every chance to repent, whereas this demon allah, demands murder, threats of violence, etc. to meet his goals.

Jester1969, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 8:49:56 AM)

Basil,


The reason I asked was I wondered if that is why Quadaffy called President Obama "our son" during his UN speech. I don't mean to imply that I think that Obama is a Muslim, I just wonder if Muslims view him as a Muslim because of his father.

gadfly, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 8:57:19 AM)

The following familiar song says it all:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 9:00:24 AM)

Jester,

President Obama is considered an apostate from Islam, so I don't know why Quadaffy called him our son. He may have been referring to Obama's African heritage (and possibly birth).

The atheist in this article is getting death threats, but I've not heard of such outrage from Muslims directed toward Obama for his apostacy. I think Muslims are happy that someone, who is at least sympathetic to Islam and may have some understanding of it, is President of the U.S. However, unless Obama is being deceitful or is himself deceived, he doesn't seem to have an accurate view of Islam, based on the actual history and fruit of Islamic belief.

Jester1969, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 9:05:33 AM)

"He may have been referring to Obama's African heritage (and possibly birth)." -- I guess that makes Quadaffy a "birther", lol.


Thanks for your answers :-).

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 9:59:27 AM)

". . . fundamentalist Jews who kill Muslim children in the Gaza Strip."

This must be a rare occurence.

It's funny how some portray all religions as being equally harmful, bringing up rare occurences of violence or injustices committed in the name of Judaism or Christianity. These shouldn't be projected upon these faiths as a whole. It's unfair to do so. The fact that violence and injustices have occured by Christians and Jews is undeniable, but these events are comparatively much rarer than what has been seen in Islam. These aren't two sides of the same coin. One has a Savior who we should be struggling to exemplify, Who stated that we must work to love our enemies and forgive those who wrong us. We don't fulfill this perfectly, as we all must continue to take up the struggle against sin and death, but at least we have a positive model to follow, rather than Mohammed.

forkandknife, Tulsa (10/1/2009 10:07:09 AM)

I see John Lennon up there.

And this story is dumb. Sorry. Just how I feel about it. I mean, isn't Allah or whatever, in their belief the exact same thing as God in the christianity beliefs?

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 10:30:41 AM)

A belief in an all powerful being that controls everything in this small speck of the universe is absurd. The bible was written by man to control the masses by way of fear. If you really took the time to investigate and ask questions of what is written in that book, you would see that none of it makes any sense. There is no physical or historical proof of any of the fantastic things that supposedly happened centuries ago. If you think all that stuff is true, you are brainwashed by the clergy and delusional. Atheism does not believe in nothing, it is the rational thinking of inteligent people who will question things that can't possibly be true, based on mythology and superstition from the dark ages. There is no hell, so enjoy your life and quit trying to please a god or gods that could care less about a small speck in the vast universe.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 11:00:59 AM)

Grammar is the least of our worries, fundamentalist of any religion are the things that we all need to be worried about before we become what our forefathers were trying to avoid, and that is a country run by theocracy based on myth and superstition that will bring on another inquisition.

psychedelikrelik, Tulsa (10/1/2009 1:18:51 PM)

Basil's rewriting history again.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 1:38:47 PM)

"The bible was written by man to control the masses by way of fear."

Sounds like paranoid schizophrenia. The scriptures instruct us that we have the freedom to choose death or life, but encourages us to choose life-giving decisions, to be healed from the effects of sin and death.

Working toward being a good, whole person is also a benefit to the state, but that doesn't mean that it is a concoction of the state to manipulate the masses. History doesn't show that Christ was a puppet of any state, in fact His message was a challenge to the Roman State who worked hard for the first three centuries to crush the faith.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 1:59:34 PM)

Back then christianity was a cult like all religions when they started, and all their stories and rituals where gleaned from previous pagan religions just like the new ones today are. Until the printing press only the clergy read the bible or koran and interpreted to suit their best interests to control the masses and make money and become more powerful by becoming the government that ruled.Instilling fear of the unknown and hatred of those who would think differntly is the basis of all wars and hate that is practiced today in the name of god.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 2:10:29 PM)

Billy8,

Would you say those who reject all religion are better at securing peace, love, and freedom?

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 2:38:57 PM)

yes, because we have freed ourselves from the chains of slavery of dogma. Read the words to Imagine again and you will understand.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 3:07:26 PM)

The 1917 atheist communist revolution of Russia led to over 50 million murders during and after the revolution. For one example. There are many others. The worst crimes in our society and culture occur at the hands of those who've rejected or abandoned faith and reason.

Atheists are frequently some of the most hostile, crticial members of our society, from my experience. They are harsh in their attack on anyone who disagrees with them, and when backed into an intellectual corner, lash out, being unable to fulfill the requirments of a logical argument. None of them can answer the seemingly obvious question of, "If there is not intellegent creator, from where did all this stuff around us come?"

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 3:09:55 PM)

Sabri, if you read these comments google "former muslims united" for a support group for those who've been smart enough to leave Islam. I've brought your situation to their attention and they'd like to hear from you.

DarwinMarx, (10/1/2009 3:18:36 PM)

Faith and reason? There is no logic or reason to faith. Where is your evidence of a god? Time and space are so vast that the human race is nothing more that a flash. Why would a creator take billions and billions of years to create mankind only for people to exist for a split second of time? Why did all this stuff have to come from someplace anyway?

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/1/2009 5:34:08 PM)

Not the Islam I know. I hope those who are doing the threatening read up on verses 2:256, 109:06, 18:29, 11:121, 39:41, 42:48, and 16:125.

"Why did all this stuff have to come from someplace anyway?"

Something can't come from nothing. ; )

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/1/2009 5:35:11 PM)

LOL, 'relik, I suppose it makes Basil feel better about himself.