billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 10:30:41 AM)

A belief in an all powerful being that controls everything in this small speck of the universe is absurd. The bible was written by man to control the masses by way of fear. If you really took the time to investigate and ask questions of what is written in that book, you would see that none of it makes any sense. There is no physical or historical proof of any of the fantastic things that supposedly happened centuries ago. If you think all that stuff is true, you are brainwashed by the clergy and delusional. Atheism does not believe in nothing, it is the rational thinking of inteligent people who will question things that can't possibly be true, based on mythology and superstition from the dark ages. There is no hell, so enjoy your life and quit trying to please a god or gods that could care less about a small speck in the vast universe.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 11:00:59 AM)

Grammar is the least of our worries, fundamentalist of any religion are the things that we all need to be worried about before we become what our forefathers were trying to avoid, and that is a country run by theocracy based on myth and superstition that will bring on another inquisition.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 1:59:34 PM)

Back then christianity was a cult like all religions when they started, and all their stories and rituals where gleaned from previous pagan religions just like the new ones today are. Until the printing press only the clergy read the bible or koran and interpreted to suit their best interests to control the masses and make money and become more powerful by becoming the government that ruled.Instilling fear of the unknown and hatred of those who would think differntly is the basis of all wars and hate that is practiced today in the name of god.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 2:38:57 PM)

yes, because we have freed ourselves from the chains of slavery of dogma. Read the words to Imagine again and you will understand.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/1/2009 6:56:59 PM)

I'm glad That I have someone like Bud Green to help explain all that stuff to those too ignorant to look it up and see how their belief is just bs.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/4/2009 1:44:00 PM)

exactly, what evidence is there of creationism other that what some guy wrote in a book a few thousand years ago. creationism is and unproven theory. If a god created the entire universe, what is the purpose of all that empty unused space that continues to go on for light years, and we are but one insignificant speck in that vast cosmos. What being would really care what this speck is doing? Evolution speaks for itself scientifically, but creationism is just a pipe dream from some desert dwellers hallucination from lack of water and eating all those catus and mushrooms.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/8/2009 11:10:39 AM)

any one who believes all that magical stuff is real is delusional at best. do you also believe in all the other magical stuff like david copperfield does? if you just stop and think about what you are saying you believe in and listen to yourself, you'd laugh at it too.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/8/2009 4:11:49 PM)

I have already been there and done that, and have finally concluded in my old age that it is all a bunch of malarkey.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/5/2009 1:03:20 PM)

"All interpretations of the Bible that involve supernatural claims or abilities are false."
Then you would agree that the entire bible is wrong because there are many claims of supernatural abilities which are there to convince believers and to instill fear of the unknown and supernatural in order to control them.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/5/2009 1:46:01 PM)

the beliefs and rituals practiced by today's religions were established thousands of years before the advent of christianity which borrowed all those pagan beliefs and rituals. all based on fear of the unknown which has become more known the more we use science to explain things than to rely on myth and superstition.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/5/2009 1:46:36 PM)

belief in a god and religion is an outdated concept.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/6/2009 10:19:07 AM)

there is no physical or historical proof of a man god called jesus ever existed. the stories are just a rehash of prior stories of all man gods that ever existed in the minds of those too dumb to realize what reality is. do you also believe all the myth that has ever been written?

billy8, Sand Springs (10/6/2009 3:24:14 PM)

all based on a fantasy propagated by the church that decided in the 6th century what to put in and what to keep out of the bible. anyone can write a story about what they may think have happened, but there is nothing physical or concrete to any of it.

billy8, Sand Springs (10/7/2009 9:55:51 AM)

The gospels in the new testament where written 150 years after this so called man-god walked the earth, so first hand knowledge was not used. the council of nicene in the 6th century is where they made the decision to remove many other gospels and stories of the new testament and rewrite the the whole thing. it's all just stories and mythology based on superstition with no proof, all of it was taken from religions that were around for centuries, especially in egypt and the greek and roman myths.

Mar, Tulsa (10/4/2009 6:43:18 PM)

Religion should be a personal belief. I won't stuff my religion down your throat and you won't stuff your religion down my throat.

I was raised a Catholic, but quit practicing about 12 years ago. I am religious in my own way now.

FUTURE WORLD, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:23:25 PM)

Did he not expect this. His position must be borne through the desire to make money on his atheist beliefs.

zTruth, Tulsa (10/5/2009 7:50:07 AM)

This man symbolizes something we value very much in America: religious freedom. In our country, he can choose his own religion or be free from any religion. This freedom is not supported in Islamic countries which often operate under Sharia or Islamic law.

I wonder if Americans fully appreciate the magnitude of this freedom.

Husibi received death threats which is worrisome but doesn't surprise me based on the strict interpretation of Islam practiced in this city.

But why would the Tulsa World publish his picture? His safety may be at risk here. I don't get it.

Additionally, all the verses that Proud Muslim suggested reading in the Quran can be countered by verses which reveal Allah's distain for apostacy or its ultimate Islamic supremacy goals. I also believe the four main Sunni Islamic schools of law agree it is a sin to leave Islam.

This is a very brave man!

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/1/2009 5:34:08 PM)

Not the Islam I know. I hope those who are doing the threatening read up on verses 2:256, 109:06, 18:29, 11:121, 39:41, 42:48, and 16:125.

"Why did all this stuff have to come from someplace anyway?"

Something can't come from nothing. ; )

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/1/2009 5:35:11 PM)

LOL, 'relik, I suppose it makes Basil feel better about himself.

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/1/2009 6:54:30 PM)

Admittedly well argued, Bud Green. God is immune to regress because that is the definition of God, that He has no beginning and no end.

I'll stick to my theory until something better comes along. ; )

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/2/2009 7:43:12 PM)

Can't recall a time I used violence or threats to control someone.

You must be generalizing about someone else. ; )

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/3/2009 1:10:37 PM)

JackBlackson, I respectfully disagree. I'm no expert on Christianity, but I know it to be a peaceful religion.

Proud Muslim, Tulsa: Coolest place in the world (almost) (10/4/2009 7:37:13 PM)

I agree 100%, Mar.

52favoriteteacher, ex--Broken Arrow Tiger (10/3/2009 5:34:33 PM)

FAITH=Forsaking All I Trust Him

To forgive others is beyond many of us at times.

There is a reason this man has turned away from his God...

He became an atheist after years of studying religion and serving as a soldier in the...

It would be good to hear the rest of the story...

psychedelikrelik, Tulsa (10/1/2009 1:18:51 PM)

Basil's rewriting history again.

HansErlingJensen, Copenhagen (10/2/2009 5:18:58 AM)

Muslims always claim their respect for other religions and even other people that have no religion. Most of us in the west know that is a lie. And the proof is delivered straight from God in the Koran itself.

In the muslims holy book, Allah claims that it is blasphemy to be a Christian, a Jew or just a non-believer, an atheist, an agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever in that category.

Here comes the sources that contains the documentation:
The verses in Sura 5.17, 5.72, 5.73 says that each and every Christian are committing blasphemy. So it goes for the Jews in 4.155, 5.64 & 5.68 – and for all others, to be sure that nobody is left out Muhammad stuffed 2.88 with the following:
They say, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word: we need no more)." Nay, Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.

And this is only the Koran – I haven’t even looked at Hadith! But why do I reveal this stuff? Well I mean it is important that all non-muslims really understand that it is dangerous for everybody, who do not believe in Allah and his self-made prophet, to travel to or make a transit in an Islamic country.

Theoretically we could be arrested and court-martialed for blasphemy just for not believing in Allah – me of course for criticizing the whole concept, often in a very straight forward way, which many calls rude and unnecessary – because it is written in the “never changing” Koran, that blasphemy is everything but submission to Allah and his messenger!

Committing blasphemy in Islamic countries is a very serious crime that causes a severe punishment. In KSA it is met with a death penalty as in other wahabi areas of the world.

HansErlingJensen, Copenhagen (10/2/2009 9:20:06 PM)

Test

HansErlingJensen, Copenhagen (10/2/2009 9:21:37 PM)

Well obviously here we have a problem, links to the sources are not accepted. That is not very smart. So I think that will be good bye for me!

HansErlingJensen, Copenhagen (10/2/2009 9:25:07 PM)

If you would like to hear what I really wanted to say you can reach me on: hej - and here the sign, that I cannot write on this webpage - expozite - and here the period, that the machine refuse - com

I will appreciate your interest.

Regards

Hans Erling Jensen

HansErlingJensen, Copenhagen (10/3/2009 4:14:50 PM)

It does not sound very clever nor logic to believe a man who says, that he himself talked to an angel (at first he thought he was gone crazy or possessed by the devil) who told him what god told him to say.....?

It is garbage! Everybody can claim he or she is a prophet and that god will punish everybody that not believes it - and when people ask after evidence, then he (even me) would say: Because I say it!

Do you really mean people with a brain can be considered normal believing in such total nonsense? (The Koran is so full of rubbish so I just can't get it into my head, that living people can just think of believing in it and take it seriously - unless they have a sickness in their mind - or like the scholars, see a great idea of gaining power with it!)

Religion is brainwashing and Izlam is the worst kind of trashy junk!

dustyoutlaw, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:42:06 PM)

Before I started reading the Tulsa World threads I thought I was just a garden variety Christian.

NOW I understand that some Christians are not that far removed from the Taliban and are the minions of the antichrist pretending to be Christians in order to gain converts to do evil.

So let's recap. Fundamentalists of all religions are dangerous extremist, not to be trusted, serve satan and are nutcases.

That about cover it?

dustyoutlaw, Tulsa (10/2/2009 11:57:32 PM)

I sit corrected. Let's get back up to speed here.

So what the word now is, is that all fundmentalist religions and atheiests are nutcase extremists?

I can buy that.

dustyoutlaw, Tulsa (10/2/2009 11:59:11 PM)

LOL Is Hans soliciting for his religous business?

a disciple, Glenpool (10/1/2009 5:14:55 AM)

I would like to correct one myth that continues to come up in discussions. Timothy McVeigh was not a "fundamentalist Christian." In news articles published while he was still alive, he confessed to being agnostic.

Oldfatdude, Shàngdu (10/2/2009 3:40:40 PM)

To Basil and all who agree with him. I respectfully disagree with 100% of everything you believe and say.

I'm atheistic and all I ask is for you and your ilk to not knock on my door and disturb my peaceful evenings at home with your dogma.

As for Mr. Husibi - the intollerance directed at him is not justified, period.

Whether he is "working the system" or not, he is allowed to have his opinion as much as anyone else. However, it's my opinion that he should keep his opinions to himself unless asked. But since no one asked for my opinion, feel free to ignore me. But please tolerate me as I tolerate others. (hmmm. That sounds kinda familiar)

Oldfatdude, Shàngdu (10/5/2009 9:30:43 AM)

I hope Mr. Sabri Husibi remains alive and well.

After reading this thread, it seems like a bible and a dictionary went on a rollercoaster ride together. It would appear that the bible threw up all over this page and the dictionary tried to clean it up.

forkandknife, Tulsa (10/1/2009 10:07:09 AM)

I see John Lennon up there.

And this story is dumb. Sorry. Just how I feel about it. I mean, isn't Allah or whatever, in their belief the exact same thing as God in the christianity beliefs?

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 6:21:35 PM)

"Atheism is even more absurd than Islam. To suggest everything in the natural world was created from nothing is impossible and irrational. You can quibble over which faith offers the fullest understanding of the true God, Who in His wisdom designed all things, but you cannot deny an intelligent being created everything, or you're left with nothing. Atheism is intellectual emptiness."

That statement is either dishonest or intellectually weak, I'm not familiar with your comments so I won't claim which it is.

The basic definition of atheism is "disbelief in gods". It takes no faith, no religion to it whatsoever. Atheism, by definition, does not claim to have the answers to everything including the origin of the universe. Atheists do however tend to believe those things which are plausible, observed and documented or at least based on observed and documented evidence. Religious adherents, on the other hand, tend to scoff at scientific findings like dinosaur bones and claim their god put them there as a prank.

No one has ever provided valid empirical evidence to suggest that any of the thousands of gods exists or existed. The bible and the koran are not valid evidence of a gods existance. The only thing the religious books prove is that centuries later people still insist on believing unsubstantiated claims, campfire bs stories and ancient superstitions.

Typically, believing in something contrary to scientific discovery (genesis for example) is done out of sheer will. Regardless of the amounts of empirical evidence that contradicts the bible, some people still believe out of sheer will.

Of course, you also do not get to decide what atheists believe. Your arguments are weak and fallacious since not all atheists have the same beliefs concerning the origins of the universe. Unlike religions, there are no rigid doctrines that atheists must adhere to.

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 6:22:51 PM)

"Something can't come from nothing. ; )"

Based on that argument, something or someone created god and thus there is something superior to and bigger than god. The argument is based on regress and uses a god to terminate the regress. The problem with the regress argument is implying that a god is immune to the regress. Why should a god be immune to regress?

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 6:40:55 PM)

"The 1917 atheist communist revolution of Russia led to over 50 million murders during and after the revolution. For one example. There are many others. The worst crimes in our society and culture occur at the hands of those who've rejected or abandoned faith and reason."

Faith and reason are mutually exclusive; you must abandon reason to rely on faith. One wouldn't believe in unsubstantiated claims, campfire bs stories and ancient superstition that contradicts scientific discoveries if one were being reasonable.

Here again you're either misinformed or being deceptive. Stalin was raised in the orthodox church and attended seminary. The genocides committed by murderers like Stalin and Pol Pot had all the markings of nationalism. When compared to Inquisitions, for example, did Stalin order those murders "in the name of the lord atheism"? No, it was because he was a sociopathic tyrant.

The same cannot however be said about Hitler, who mixed nationalism with the church as evidence clearly proves. All the nazi murderers wore insignia that bore christian crosses and Hitler publically and privately stated that he was doing gods work as empirical evidence proves.

The debate about Stalin, Pol Pot and other genocidal maniacs rages on; your arguments are too simple to explain the complexities behind the genocides that were ordered by the aforementioned madmen. Of course, that is an inherent problem with christianity; always offering simple answers to complex questions. For example, "god did it" is all too frequently used to explain things the adherents simply do not understand.

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 7:07:00 PM)

"They are harsh in their attack on anyone who disagrees with them, and when backed into an intellectual corner, lash out, being unable to fulfill the requirments of a logical argument."

Do you have proof, or evidence, that a creationist ever backed someone into an intellectual corner using logic in a proper debate setting? A church with an audience of believers and a moderator from among the believers allowing the creationist to use baseless assertions is not considered proper scientific debate.

Among other deceptive practices, creationists tend to deliberately confuse the start of life (biogenesis) with how life changes over time (evolution). They also deliberately confuse the facts of evolution (documented and observed) with theory of evolution (explanation for what has been observed).

Scientists debate what is known and has been observed, documented and tested. Creationists allow themselves speculation, baseless claims, deceit, lies and biblical fantasy to claim "truth". Creationists dismiss any and all evidence that does contradicts their preconceived dogma. We call them science haters for a reason.

In fact, it is almost impossible to find a creationist who will debate creation. They want to debate what their opinion of evolution is and the debate must be in the controlled setting of their church. They refuse to provide factual evidence, instead claiming the bible and other fantasies prove their case. Simply put, they insist "god did it" yet provide not a shred of evidence.

The list goes on and on, in fact it would take hours to type in all the deceptive practices used by creationists. In a properly moderated debate, the creationist loses every time because outlandish fantastical bizarre claims are not allowed, supporting evidence must be provided and the debate must stay on the agreed topic rather than whether or not the opponent is an atheist.

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 7:31:44 PM)

"These shouldn't be projected upon these faiths as a whole. It's unfair to do so."

Basil, in one comment you imply that genocidal tyrants like Stalin committed their crimes because they were allegedly atheist, thus atheists are bad people, then here you claim it's unfair to lump all the wrongdoings of judaism and christianity upon the faiths as a whole.

So, it's only unfair if it's used against your beliefs but all's fair against someone elses.

Here again you make simple explanations when in fact there is much more to the debates over religious slaughters. One example is the population back during the Inquisitions and Crusades was much smaller; there were less people to kill. Another is accuracy in body count; the churches and apologists will claim significantly smaller death tolls than other sources.

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 7:33:27 PM)

"I'll stick to my theory until something better comes along. ; )"

Nothing wrong with that.

Bud Green, No (10/9/2009 12:21:24 PM)

"His life is more well-documented than any other historic person from ancient times."

That's simply not true.
Outside of Christian literature, there is no mention of Jesus or evidence of his existence.

There also is no evidence, archaeological or otherwise, that Nazareth existed in the first century.

Bud Green, No (10/6/2009 10:34:40 PM)

Add the influence of Zoroastrianism (first on judaism, then on xtianity) as seen in the old testament (creation, prevailing over evil, free will) through the last book revelation (final homecoming of savior, rising of dead, end-time prophecy), and it's not difficult to piece together a religion; all you need now is a centerpiece, a man-god hero to worship. Some say the "best" parts of several religions and tradition were mixed to create christianity, others go a step further and claim it's a modern pagan religion. Any way you look at it, there's not much of anything revolutionary to it.

Bud Green, No (10/7/2009 10:25:14 AM)

"can you name one religion which had taught what Christ presented? Which religion taught us to love our enemies, forgiving those who abuse us, to give without consideration of your own needs, to seek reward in heaven, rather than in this fleeting temporal life, self-denial, equality of all races and both genders, etc."

Zoroastrianism specifically taught equality between genders and rewarded good morality with eternal life. Also belief in god & satan, judgment upon death, angels & demons, heaven & hell, resurrection, return of the savior and teachings about end-time prophecy which included a final conflict between good and evil at the end of time. The better question would be "what was revolutionary about christianity, and not copied or borrowed elsewhere?".

Confuscious had those ideas, hundreds of years before the christ.

"What Christ presented was more than just another philosophical system, although that element exists within Christianity. He presented a Way for us to return to communion with God, from our self-inflicted exile caused by our darkened hearts. He destroyed the power sin and death has over us, so that we can be restored to our true nature of god-likeness."

Nothing new or revolutionary about those; pagans held those beliefs centuries before christianity.

Bud Green, No (10/7/2009 10:29:19 AM)

Even Budhist concepts can be found in christianity.

Bud Green, No (10/7/2009 11:53:56 AM)

Indeed, apocalyptic doctrine, ultimate battle between god and satan, coming of a messiah, resurrection, angels & demons, final judgment and an era of peace was found in Zoastrianiasm more than a millennium before new testament times.

Bud Green, No (10/7/2009 12:01:43 PM)

Valid arguments explain how Zoroastrianism was able to influence judaism first and thus christanity, primarily by traders along the Silk Route as many jews lived from persia to babylon to Alexandria and from the meditteranean to China. It's no coincidence that persian influences are found in apocalyptic literature such as Daniel and Ezekiel. Certainly Christians and early Jews used concepts from Zoroastrianism and shaped them to fit their needs.

Bud Green, No (10/7/2009 2:30:35 PM)

"Zoroastrianism does in fact have some elements of truth within it, as all religions do..."

What criteria are you using to conclude that religious beliefs are "truth"?

The parts that you agree with are considered truth and the parts you disagree with are false, of course.

"we all were made by a common Creator, and have His image imprinted on our hearts, since we were designed in His image and likeness."

It's very easily countered that man created god in his own likeness.

"These common features dating back throughout the centuries only serve to bolster the belief that we all have some common spiritual knoweledge and experience that transcends time and cultures."

Or simply copied, borrowed and otherwise used to fit the needs at the time.

"Cultures completely isolated from one another have similar elements within their different spiritual beliefs--now you have the reason why, although you can remain skeptical and come up with your own hypothesis for why they share characterisitics."

Zoroastrianists and Budhists were by no means isolated as the Silk Route of trade has been shown to be a plausible, likely probable, method of shared ideas crossing cultures.

More in-depth studies show specific elements of Zoroastrianist doctrine in Christianity, Daniel and Ezekiel for example. This is no coincidence. Matthew, Thessolonians, Corinthians, Revelation and others show clear influence; adaptation beyond mere similarities.

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 7:25:39 PM)

Mithras - god-man, before Rome, when Jesus was new, Mithras was ancient. Born December 25th, Mithras was buried in a tomb from which he was said to rise from the dead. Every year on December 25th priests in white garments celebrated his birthday by lighting candles. He was said to have come from heaven, to redeem mankind of it's sins. Was also referred to as Redeemer, Lamb of God, Savior and Son of God. Rituals included sacred meals, honoring the sabbath and were said to bring salvation and eternal life in heaven with their god.

Sound familiar?

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 7:29:08 PM)

Early Christians showed their respect for Mithras by exterminating his followers, razing their temples and burning their sacred texts.

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 7:42:46 PM)

Dionysus - god-man, born of a mortal woman and the god Zeus. Was said to have been ripped apart and eaten by Titans, only his heart remained and was said to be buried; from this buried heart he was said to have ressurected and ascended to heaven. Worshipped from Italy to Greece, Egypt and the Middle East. Belief in Dionysus was said to bring salvation. Texts buried with the bodies of believers described salvation and eternal life. Initiation was by bathing.(wasn't called baptism yet)

Sound familiar?

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 7:58:36 PM)

There were numerous others before Jesus, born of mortals, born of virgins conceived by gods, born of gods and goddesses, performing miracles, bringing salvation and atonement, came from heaven, some were said to have went to Hades and returned as Hades had a different meaning then, initiated by bathing in water before it was called baptism, souls of believers were said to have everlasting life.

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 8:03:31 PM)

god-men, rising from the dead, ascension, initiated by bathing, eucharist, miracles, demons, slavery, hell, virgin birth, sacrifice, sacred meals, prophecy, gods, eternal life, logos, monotheism, heaven, slavery, angels etc.

Every one of these were Pagan beliefs & practices prior to Christianity.

Bud Green, No (10/6/2009 6:01:19 PM)

Most everything about christianity was borrowed, copied or stolen and at best slightly altered. Little to none of it was radical, revolutionary or unique. All the beliefs, rituals and practices were part of the culture in that time and place. The people believed in heaven, salvation and god-men sent from heaven who traveled around teaching about those beliefs and many others including atonement for sin and good morals.

Wise men following a star with gifts for the newborn god-man? Arose from a tomb, when apparently dead? All taught before Jesus. Even the story of Noahs Ark is quite similar to one told long before the genesis account.

It was said to treat others as you would have them treat you long before Jesus showed up and in other civilizations.

Teachings about eternal life in heaven with the father were mainstream beliefs centuries before Jesus spoke of them. All the beliefs, rituals, practices and superstitions were part of the culture at that time. The beliefs, customs, rituals, practices and teachings of what is now christianity were around for centuries, jesus was simply added to the existing practices, yet christians refer to previous god-men with those teachings and identical beliefs and rituals as "false". Christians even refer to christians of other denominations as false christians, believers of false doctrine and accuse them of not being true christians.

Bud Green, No (10/4/2009 11:47:01 AM)

"Evolution is an unproved, faulty theory. It is no answer at all - because it offers no explanation for the first source."

Evolution is documented fact that has been observed and continues. You can look up with google the difference between scientific theory and everyday theory. The argument that evolution is a theory is another misleading and factually incorrect red herrings that creationists bring up, causing their opponent to spend time explaining theory and evolution while the religious audience says amen in chorus. It's a common deceptive practice used by creationists.

Scientific theory must be published in legitimate journals and subjected to peer review prior to being accepted. Creationists refuse to do the same because their so-called theory will not stand up to the slightest scrutiny. They consider anything not in agreement with their intended result to be "bad science" and "faulty theory". This refusal to accept anything contrary to religious belief is, in part, the reason fundamentalists can not be taken seriously in any scientific community.
"Christian Faith looks at all of the facts, determines that the consensus proves the odds to be overwhelmingly in favor of the God described in the history of the Jews."

That's absurd. Religion tosses aside any evidence that does not coincide with their prescribed beliefs.

Bud Green, No (10/4/2009 11:56:04 AM)

"Evolution is an unproved, faulty theory. It is no answer at all - because it offers no explanation for the first source."

Evolution observes how things change over time. Your argument is an example of the deliberate confusing of evolution and evolutionary theory I mentioned yesterday; typical creationist deception.

Bud Green, No (10/4/2009 1:31:04 PM)

"You claim, however, that this change, though innate, produced our world."

No, I did not make that claim. Evolution can be independant of how life began; there is no certainty as to how life began yet evolution has been observed. Science, unlike religion, does not claim to have the answer to everything documented in ancient books.

"Have you ever noticed that creation and evolution have exactly the same order of our beginning, though the Bible was written centuries before Darwin? If a myth, wonder why the Bible doesn’t say man came first – or put birds before fish?"

Genesis and science have differing orders of events, not the exact same order. Genesis is not supported by any scientific findings. Genesis, in fact, contradicts Genesis and cannot be taken seriously. "God did it" is not an acceptable argument.

"The problem is that it concludes – call it a theory or not – and that conclusion is ridiculous - it is no explanation at all because it denies that first source was necessary."

Of course evolution does not conclude how life began; it studies changes over time. Genesis, on the other hand, claims to have the answers in ancient books and concludes that "god did it", which is ridiculous.

"Or, at least,if the evolutionist thinks possibly something was there,they adamantly proclaim that it could not be a force of intelligent design. WHY?"

Because no credible evidence has ever been presented that suggests or supports intelligent design.

Bud Green, No (10/4/2009 1:36:31 PM)

"Green says: "Religion tosses aside any evidence that does not coincide with their prescribed beliefs"

What evidence would that be?"

The order of events in Genesis are not supported by science, yet creationists claim that science and genesis go hand-in-hand, for example.

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 12:40:18 AM)

Sanity, your last comment addressed and quoted JackBlackson's comment, not mine, as shown.

Bud Green, No (10/5/2009 7:12:08 PM)

"the beliefs and rituals practiced by today's religions were established thousands of years before the advent of christianity which borrowed all those pagan beliefs and rituals."

billy8 is correct. In biblical times and prior, worshipping god-men was common. Jesus was not the first god-man worshipped, not the first mythical god-man born of a mortal or virgin, not the first mythical god-man said to perform miracles. Long before the Jesus stories, people worshipped god-men and believed that they would unite with their god-man in heaven for eternity. These beliefs practices were common accross Meditteranean states.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:27:43 PM)

"It's true that God is incomprehensible, but less so than the closed end conclusion that matter has always existed. That's not a valid theory of origin. God is mystery, but He has taken steps to be known by us, as recorded in Hebrew and Christian experience. You can argue about the validity of such experience, but if you are an atheist you have no explanation for the origin of the natural world."

Creationists do not refer to it as valid because it contradicts the results and conclusions they intend to achieve. Religions do not have rational, valid explanations for anything including the origin of this world, they instead offer guesses made by ancient tribesmen who thought they were the earths original inhabitants and knew not that other continents and civilizations existed elsewhere on the planet. Superstitions and factual errors are evident in religion and they refuse to update instead insisting that science must be wrong.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:43:12 PM)

"This seems to support that there may have been an Architect behind the natural laws and order of the universe."

But yet christianity claims your god does certainly exist, claims it as "truth" and claims that it created everything. No "maybe" to it.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:46:58 PM)

"to suggest both religions are equal is ignorant."

Actually, both religions can be entirely wrong; it is certainly possible that dogma from both religions are incorrect since it derived from ancient superstition, mysticism, campfire bs stories and other unproven claims.

I find "my denomination/religion is closer to explaining god than yours" ignorant.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 3:04:26 PM)

"Nonsense! Faith is a conviction based on evidence. It stops short of absolute proof, leaving room for choice. The God of the Bible gives us a consensus of proof, and on that basis invites us to His family. Can’t beat that offer. Can’t find a more ideal morality to be a part of. "

No, it is not "nonnense". In reality, your reply is nonsense. Faith in a god means that the believer considers the existence of his god to be factual knowledge. The claim is in the absence of proper, adequate evidence or proof. Faith doesn't stop with the claims that a god exists, x-tianity goes on to add that non-believers will be tormented in a bar-b-que pit for eternity if they refuse to convert, along with numerous other bizarre, fantastic unsubstantiated claims, all requiring blind faith to believe. Religions don't claim that their god is merely a possibility, a belief that may someday be proven true. They insist their god and the bizarre assertions are factually accurate and true.

Burning people forever in a pit of fire because they don't buy what you're selling and packaging it as "ideal morality" is deceptive and dishonest. It's a scare, or fear, tactic. Threatening people with violence if they don't submit to your demands is usually considered improper behavior to sane people.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 3:18:05 PM)

"ABSOLUTELY FALSE: Scientists DO DEBATE what is known and has been observed, documented and tested – "

My statement was referring to scientific debate and is correct.

"and then they force their FALSE conclusions upon society."

This was added by you and is certainly a lie. What false conclusions has science forced on society? Be sure to provide your evidence confirming the conclusions to be false if you expect to be taken seriously. False conclusions like the computer and internet you're using in your tirade against science? What false conclusions? Proving that the earth is not flat thus contradicting numerous entries in the bible that refer to a flat earth? That the earth wasn't built on a foundation with cornerstones as claimed in the bible? That the earth is not stationary and the sun doesn't revolve around it? Religions, such as x-tianity, clearly force false conclusions upon society.

Your reply is further proof that creationists and theocrats use dishonest tactics.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 3:44:35 PM)

"True science does not contract Christianity. Evolution is an unproved theory with many contradictions. Christians do hate evil, not people."

What contradictions? Documented findings that can not co-exist with your prescribed conclusions? So science is by default wrong? That's funny.

It is true that scientific findings contradict religious claims like the sun revolving around the earth, for example. These claims were made in the absence of documented findings and studies. The people who authored writings like genesis, for example, did not have the vast libraries of reference that are available now. The events in genesis, as ambiguous and absurd as they are, are simply not supported by science and "creation science" is little more than genesis with lipstick and testosterone. It's the science of believing bizarre claims in the face of evidence suggesting otherwise and referring to it as "truth".

Obviously, science haters only approve of science in instances where they can claim it supports their desired conclusion. Those conclusions are all laid out for you in advance, in the bible for example. Science is not here to prove or disprove gods or christianity. Science tests and documents what has been observed. No one is obligated to disprove the wild, unsubstantiated claims of religions. The burden of proof is always on the one making the positive assertion, or claim.

In debate, creationists expect science to be honest and provide documented and tested evidence for their assertions, yet creationists follow up with fallacies and baseless unsubstantiated claims that often become red herrings, or distractions.

Evolution is documented fact, evolutionary theory explains that which was documented. Science updates with new discoveries, often laying to rest previous theories. Religious dogma and superstition are rigid and remain unchanged even when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

Bud Green, No (10/1/2009 7:41:59 PM)

Also, Stalins government was run and operated much like a theocracy with Stalin himself the centerpiece and cult of personality.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 1:57:55 PM)

"That illuminates the ultimate weakness of atheism. As difficult as it is for us finite creatures to wrap our minds around the idea that an eternal God exists, there is no other rational substitute to explain the ultimate question of “From where did the natural world come?” Facing that question, the difficult reality that an intelligent creator exists, becomes the more plausible answer."

Plausible? No. It's most commonly referred to as wishful thinking. The existence of an "intelligent creator" is not a reality. Reality is, typically, that which is known to be fact.

"god did it" is not a valid, rational explanation for any complex question.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:00:28 PM)

"Creation did not occur in six 24 hour days, but perhaps six ages. To an eternal God, time has no significance. A day to God is like a thousand years to us. In the Orthodox Church, for example, we don’t believe that Genesis was ever meant to be a literal account of creation events, but it does truly testify that all things were made by God."

Those statements are beliefs, not reality. They're not worthy of scientific debate therefore should not be referred to as "truth". Genesis does, in fact, define a "day". The entire account of events in genesis is ambiguous, contradictory and defies science as it was written long before libraries of factual observed documented events were compiled. It also explains why the loophole "a day to god is like a thousand years to us" was fabricated.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:11:27 PM)

"Do you have any idea what the probability of our complex universe occuring by accident is?"

Irrelevant. We're not talking about "possibly being more correct". Religion claims to be absolute truth, not a possibility. I didn't state that the universe occurred by accident. It's presently believed that the universe existed billions of years before earth came to being. What rational, logical and scientific explanation do creationists offer? Creationists are not claiming that their god might exist and probably will be discovered someday, you claim your gods existence is a 100% factual truth and that it created everything.

Why is your omnipotent god playing hide-n-seek, anyway? "god works in mysterious ways" is not a rational or reasonable explanation.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:17:35 PM)

"This is why I am stating atheism is an intellecual cop out. Atheist create the artifical requirement that they will only believe what is observable through the 5 senses, but perhaps more exists beyond these limits."

No, that which is seen, observed and documented is not artificial. Claiming to know for a certainty that there is an unseen creator, a god, perhaps in some other dimension, defining it and doing it's talking for it is artificial.

There's a tremendous difference between asserting the possibility that something exists beyond that which we can see, and asserting that a god does indeed for certain exists and if you don't believe it you'll be roasted forever in a pit of fire.

"god works in mysterious ways" is an intellectual cop-out.

No one is accusing creationists of being honest.

Bud Green, No (10/3/2009 2:20:04 PM)

"In fact, I'd argue that the existence of so many religions, many of which share core ideas about God, are further evidence that something beyond the natural world does exist. You can argue later, which religion has best identified God to us."

Who said one of them would be a close explanation? They can possibly all be wrong and factually incorrect, and probably are.

James Young, Tulsa, Austin, Temecula (10/3/2009 4:16:48 PM)

SR71 writes: {Billy8 - "Atheism does not believe in nothing"

Double negative much?

If you're going to be a fool, you should at least use proper grammar. }

It is not a double negative since the “nothing” refers to the state of nothingness, the complete absence of everything. Let me rephrase it to assuage your overly sensitive reactionary mode: Atheism does not believe in the state of nothingness but rather in the state of reason, logic and intellect.

Far from being foolish, Billy8 made a valid observation and you missed it.

James Young, Tulsa, Austin, Temecula (10/3/2009 5:42:32 PM)

Basil writes: { "The bible was written by man to control the masses by way of fear."

Sounds like paranoid schizophrenia.}

It is paranoid schizophrenia.

{The scriptures instruct us that we have the freedom to choose death or life, but encourages us to choose life-giving decisions, to be healed from the effects of sin and death. }

Would it not be better to be protected from the effects of bad decisions? Sin is a silly concept but unrelated to death, which, unsurprisingly, often stems from poor decisions.

{Working toward being a good, whole person is also a benefit to the state, but that doesn't mean that it is a concoction of the state to manipulate the masses. }

“Being a “good, whole person” is its own reward but is hardly the exclusive province of religiosity. I find reason, logic and intellect to be far better drivers of a “good, whole person” than religion.

James Young, Tulsa, Austin, Temecula (10/3/2009 6:04:26 PM)

Basil writes: {The worst crimes in our society and culture occur at the hands of those who've rejected or abandoned faith and reason. }

Do you mean such things as the Crusades, the Salem witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, the extermination of native Americans, and the Holocaust? Even the Russian Revolution was undertaken not by atheists because they wished to expand atheism but to achieve goals of economic control and expansion, equitable distribution of wealth, even revenge.

{ None of them [atheists] can answer the seemingly obvious question of, "If there is not intellegent creator, from where did all this stuff around us come?" }

Wrong question. The real question should be, Now that we have all this stuff, what do we do to make our lives better, to leave a better world than the one we have?” While we should all have a healthy curiosity about the origins of the universe, to assign it as the product of an intelligent being is short-changing ourselves. Personally, since we know that energy and matter are exchangeable, it is easy to believe that massive energy, which need not be created by outside forces, converted suddenly in what we now denominate the “Big Bang.” Instead of trying to find some mystical explanation of this, we should be going, “Wow! Look what we have to work with. Let us work together to make the best of it. Brains and ideas are welcome; gods and prophets are neither needed nor wanted.”

Joe5, Bixby (10/3/2009 12:08:39 PM)

I concur with AzaD. Adding to that, without painting all Muslims with a broad brush, they must abandon their old ways from their native lands. In this country everyone is entitled to their opinion and threats are unacceptable. It's one of the things that separate us from older society's. You can not run around and threaten someone just because you don't like their beliefs. But if I were Husibi I wouldn't put to much faith in the TPD protecting me. Call it unfair if you may but...just check out all the kids that have been killed in the black community lately.

Randall Doc Fleck, fayetteville (10/3/2009 11:22:18 PM)

LOL... Basil.

Perhaps you'd would do well to expand your thinking skills a tad and do a bit of reading, too. Your unanswerable question "If there is not intellegent creator, from where did all this stuff around us come?" [your misspelling included] has been answered in several ways which are already in the advanced stages of scientific knowledge and research and by the well known philosophical arguments of Rene Descartes and the much much earlier Greek thinkers.

Science tells us that neither matter nor energy can be destroyed - this is conservation of energy and it is basic knowledge. Middle school level.

Descartes, the early Greeks and even Shakespeare in his plays all understood the latin words 'ex nihilo nihil fit' "nothing comes from nothing". You may have to think about that a while to get at what it means for the universe.

However, the long and short of things and the answer to the question that seems to be so mind boggling to you alone is: there was no true beginning of everything... the stuff of the universe is and always has been and always will be (just as you think of your god). Matter changes and reorganizes and goes through "big bang" events, but it never goes away and it never needs replacement or new "creation".

Basil, the idea of creation, even on the largest scale universe, doesn't work. Its childish thinking.
.
About Sabri. I sincerely hope he will be safe form the fanatic violence that religion evokes in people.

abrcr99, Tulsa (10/2/2009 1:29:00 PM)

Man, I am a Christian, and I would have to be honest that sometimes the way atheists tend to phrase things does often offend me (as Im sure the way christians sometimes phrase things offend them) but I am totally proud of this guy for standing his ground and speaking his mind, although I disagree with his beliefs. If he doesn't believe the Koran and wants to say it, then he can and should do it. What is sad, is how American Muslims do want to portray Islam as accepting and not belligerent (which I am sure it is in theory) but I have lived in East Asia, and the death threats and belligerent rhetoric is the type of Islam that I saw when I lived over there. Its one thing to disagree and defend Islam, which Muslims who read this stuff should do. Its another things to be completely irrational, juvenile, and make death threats.

corntrader19, (10/2/2009 7:39:19 PM)

This is not uncommon. Muslims don't like for people to join their religion, then back out. They use violence and threats to control people. That is why the "religion of peace" arguement is a lot of hooey.

corntrader19, (10/2/2009 10:21:39 PM)

If his phone number was unlisted, how did the callers get it?

DirtyWhiteHouse, (10/6/2009 5:59:05 PM)

buddhism rocks and everybody else is going to burn in hell.

DirtyWhiteHouse, (10/7/2009 5:44:35 PM)

let's keep it simple guys:

buddhism rocks!

AzaD, (10/3/2009 12:32:28 AM)

Wow, there go those Muslims with their "tolerance" again!

Notice how you can say whatever you want about Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, or whatever religion and you won't get death threats? Then, suddenly, if you are critical of Islam, you get death threats. What a shocker!!! You mean the same people who celebrated 9/11 and stone rape victims to death would actually want to kill those who criticize their barbaric and medieval religion? What a huge surprise! LMAO

HeLIES!, (10/4/2009 1:47:07 PM)

AHHHhhhh, so much tolerance and love even amongst the muslims themselves.

HeLIES!, (10/4/2009 1:56:01 PM)

I personally don't care what religion or belief anybody practices as long as they practice the following caveats:
don't lie, cheat, steal, or harm others.

Call it what you want but some beliefs practice exactly the opposite on a regular and consistent basis and they need to be stopped. If others within such violent beliefs do not consistently and openly make an effort to denounce those who are giving their belief a bad reputation, then they too, are culpable.

I don't see that denouncing happening much. Case in point, the comment that there was no discussion about this at the mosque is terrible.

There SHOULD HAVE BEEN discussion denouncing these threats and the targeting of this person.

Therein lies the problem. To turn and look the other way and then say that you don't support such violence is hypocritical. That is why people do not trust certain faiths or their people at all, and likely never will due to their continued hypocrisy around the world.

HeLIES!, (10/4/2009 2:24:18 PM)

Sheryl Siddiqui, a spokeswoman for the Islamic Society of Tulsa, said she had received one e-mail about the matter.

"There was no discussion about him at the mosque this week," she said.

gadfly, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 8:57:19 AM)

The following familiar song says it all:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

gadfly, Broken Arrow (10/5/2009 12:54:33 AM)

The most sad part of being a freethinker (not blindly accepting the faith and/or beliefs of one's parents and/or culture, is to watch religious factionalists slaughter each other over -- nothing. Religion is the personification of nature; a pre-scientific effort to explain where man came from, and where he will go after death. Science, and evolution negated the intellectual reason for all religions -- and all that is needed is "the Golden Rule."

Sabri knows this, and this makes him sad; as we all should be for what he's experiencing from his former friends and family. Sad, how sad.

jess, (10/4/2009 11:36:45 AM)

Islam is such a peaceful religion. Notice there were no calls from Christians? Wonder when people are going to wake up.

ryan7, (10/2/2009 9:52:08 AM)

I find it absolutely laughable that people are saying Christianity is better then Islam when it comes to violence. To those I have one word: Crusades.

To take this further, Christians also like to say that anything that is negative is the work of the devil. Yet god killed millions and the devil killed only 10, in the book of Job. On top of that, those 10 were killed while satan(devil) was a servant of god and was done through deceit and the losing of a bet between god and satan. So you could say that god is responsible for every single death in the bible if you use our legal standards of today.

God is the world that you create for yourself through your actions. Be loving and kind and good things will happen to you. Be a bad person and good things will not happen to you. There is no supreme being.

ryan7, (10/2/2009 11:20:32 AM)

Regardless of whether it was the first or last, the crusades were about fighting a war in the name of god. It was murder in the name of god. You say that Jesus taught a faith of peace and love yet all evidence is to the contrary.

Look at George Bush's war in Iraq. They didnt attack anybody but their own people yet we attacked them. And dont bring up 9/11 because the US was in negotiation with Turkey over an invasion 4 months before 9/11 happened. Bush referred to his war as a holy war and even pushed France to join him by suggesting that biblical prophecy was being fulfilled. He even suggested that "Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East..." A quote that has been confirmed by the president of France.

Christianity has more blood on its hands then any other religion and they justify it by using the name of god and Jesus. "Its ok because Jesus forgives me" is a common refrain. I have seen the destruction wrought by that phrase. I watched a man cheat on his wife and cast out his kids and when confronted with it, he used a similar phrase. No, its not ok because Jesus forgives you. Stop using Jesus as an excuse for the bad choices you make. Murder is still murder, and being a bad person still makes you a bad person regardless of whether Jesus forgives you are not.

Jinxed, CA (10/4/2009 11:05:29 PM)

who cares where the hell we came from. i only care about where i am going in the end.

swarner, (10/4/2009 12:53:33 PM)

Is it possible to read the original article that created all these threats?
swarner

Alix Smart, (10/2/2009 8:45:49 AM)

Atheism is even more absurd than Islam. To suggest everything in the natural world was created from nothing is impossible and irrational. but an invisible guy in the sky makes perfect logical sence?

Alix Smart, (10/5/2009 3:57:54 PM)

Dear Jesus, please protect me from your followers. amen

JackBlackson, (10/3/2009 4:41:08 PM)

ok, Sanity... You're dwelling on one thing. I still say that people can take that out of context and use it to suit their own agendas and beliefs. The context is not the point. It's the use of scripture to justify anything one wants to justify.

What of the other things I mentioned. Dashing babies heads against the stones as ordered by your God? Is this not evil? How can you call your God the God of love? Jesus is God, how can he be the same entity that in one chapter of the Bible is ordering the murder of innocent children, and also be the Prince of Peace?

Again, you're missing the point of the discussion here. You can claim that Jesus didn't preach violence, but if he's God, and God ordered the murder of babies and pregnant women, how is he a non-violent figure?

This is usually either ignored by Christians, or it's said that "Jesus negates the old testament" or some such nonsense. Jesus claimed he came to fulfill the prophecies, to fulfill the laws of the old testament. So if he believes that the laws of the Talmud, of the old testament are correct and of God, of Jesus (because they are the same entity) then he is the violent psychopath of the old testament.

You can believe what you want to believe. I just want some intellectual honesty. To say that people have taken the words of Jesus out of context is a non-issue. The issue is that people DO.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 4:53:43 PM)

Bud Green says: We're not talking about "possibly being more correct". Religion claims to be absolute truth, not a possibility."

No, people of faith are saying that THEY BELIEVE the Bible. Christianity is built on FAITH, not sight.

People have two choices. Nobody witnessed the beginning. No fossil or scientific study gives the answer. Evolution is an unproved, faulty theory. It is no answer at all - because it offers no explanation for the first source.

Christian Faith looks at all of the facts, determines that the consensus proves the odds to be overwhelmingly in favor of the God described in the history of the Jews.

These Scrolls were most carefully kept and tell of about 4 million being fed daily for 40 years - 4 million witnesses each testifying to 14,600 food drops? That has to be history's most trustworthy case.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 5:11:16 PM)

Blackmon says:
What of the other things I mentioned. Dashing babies heads against the stones as ordered by your God? Is this not evil? How can you call your God the God of love? Jesus is God, how can he be the same entity that in one chapter of the Bible is ordering the murder of innocent children, and also be the Prince of Peace?

Do you believe in “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?” The God of the Bible does. When God governed Israel by his presence (cloud by day fire by night – direct rule) he taught this as well as other harsh retribution.

Christ changed this – not the belief, just that we were to return the other cheek, leaving vengeance to God.

In Kings 8:12 Hazael said, "Why does my lord weep?" Then he answered, "Because I know the evil that you will do to the sons of Israel: their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword, and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up."

So, the lord weeps when enemies dash His little ones and rip women with child.

We hear “eye for an eye” in
Isaiah 13:16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little ones will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open.

God is LOVE, God is GOOD; but He says he is not mock, that whatsoever a man sows, that will he reap.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 5:50:13 PM)

Blackmon says:
“Again, you're missing the point of the discussion here. You can claim that Jesus didn't preach violence, but if he's God, and God ordered the murder of babies and pregnant women, how is he a non-violent figure?this is usually either ignored by Christians, or it's said that "Jesus negates the old testament" or some such nonsense.
Jesus claimed he came to fulfill the prophecies, to fulfill the laws of the old testament. So if he believes that the laws of the Talmud, of the old testament are correct and of God, of Jesus (because they are the same entity) then he is the violent psychopath of the old testament.”

My answer: God and Jesus are one in every way. I will explain: As I understand it, the Talmud may be true, don’t know. It was written by Jewish officials and includes tradition. However, their Scrolls of the Bible were handed down from Moses.

Jesus is ever bit as violent as Jehovah. He tells us of the most violent place of all – HELL. He spent three days there when redeeming us.

Also, Jehovah is just as kind, forgiving, peaceful, and loving as Jesus.

Jesus negating the Old Testament is not nonsense. In the Garden it was the apple. Then God spoke with the Father, the Patriarchs. After that it was the Law of Moses (OT). Now he speaks through his Son and the Holy Spirit. There is no forbidden apple now, no Father’s orders, no Law of Moses. Speaking of the Law of Moses, Col 2:14 says “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. At Jesus’ baptism a voice spoke from Heaven saying, “this is my beloved son, hear ye him.”

-= That918Guy =-, (10/4/2009 3:28:11 AM)

I have been reading this thread for a couple of days now and I have came to a conclusion. Mr. Husibi seems to have good intentions and all around average guy but he is trying to deal with his hardships and failure in rebellion. I have studied his situation (lost factory, past divorce, in debt, heart surgery, unemployed, can't have kids) and this must be hard for any man to consume. I believe he is in disbelief with his Almighty and asking why me? Am I in the right direction? God tests our faith to make us stronger and in hardships some people rebel to get away, get back, or even to find themselves again. Kind of like restarting your computer when it crashes. It seems to me Mr. Husibi is going through a phase of "restarting" . Many clues have led to me that deep down inside he still is Muslim ( married a Muslim woman recently, cares about his reputation in the Muslim community, formally apologized to the Muslim community, has many Muslim companions) This is a serious state of confusion and doubt within ones self and should seek professional help and counseling to put this mans worries, inner temperment, and faith at rest. Just My 2 Cents....

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/4/2009 8:53:25 AM)

Blackmon,

I must answer one thing more:
Your post: “ You can believe what you want to believe. I just want some intellectual honesty. To say that people have taken the words of Jesus out of context is a non-issue. The issue is that people DO”

No the issue CAN’T be that. We are AGREED that people take the words of Jesus out of context. The issue is that this method can never find truth anywhere. Even our 5 senses are wholly reliable – mirages, faulty conclusions as in witness testimony, etc.

No, I can’t believe what I want. That is our biggest hindrance to honesty. We reach truth by combining our experience with the most logical information available. Then what about all of the differences about the Bible?

It is merely the history of the Jews, as written by inspired people - Moses, and their prophets.

There may different honest opinions about events in such a book. Definitely, as you say, people get mixed up when they believe what they want and take words out of context.

Instead of dwelling on the misuse of the Book, read the Apostles Creed and its restated Nicene Creed. Christians have agreed on this through the ages. Christianity is a personal relationship with God. It is free-will – would be invalid with any kind of force. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened.

Christianity is our only reasonable promise of a future. Science, religion, everyone knows that this world will not last. Earth will be pulled into the sun, which will become a black hole. That is a pretty good definition of hell: fire, pit, darkness.

Relax23, TULSA (10/4/2009 9:09:04 AM)

That918Guy =

You hit It Right On The Nile Thank you....

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/4/2009 12:56:28 PM)

Green says: "Evolution observes how things change over time. Your argument is an example of the deliberate confusing of evolution and evolutionary theory I mentioned yesterday; typical creationist deception. Evolution is documented fact that has been observed and continues..."

TRUE, WE AGREE, Evolution observes how things change over time. CREATION ALSO OBSERVES HOW THINGS CHANGE OVER TIME. You claim, however, that this change, though innate, produced our world. You admit that nothing comes from nothing, but refuse to apply that here.

Have you ever noticed that creation and evolution have exactly the same order of our beginning, though the Bible was written centuries before Darwin? If a myth, wonder why the Bible doesn’t say man came first – or put birds before fish?
The fault with evolution is NOT that it observes.

The problem is that it concludes – call it a theory or not – and that conclusion is ridiculous - it is no explanation at all because it denies that first source was necessary. Or, at least,if the evolutionist thinks possibly something was there,they adamantly proclaim that it could not be a force of intelligent design. WHY?

Humans create evolution all of the time. Consider, Model T to Jaguar - room size computer to the one we are using - ice box to the frig in our kitchen. There are many examples of "fossils" progressive change - but cars and frigs didn't change on their own.

The idea that evolution continues hasn’t been proved – because, though many species become extinct, no new ones have developed in recorded time. But, on the other hand, if God wants to continue to evolve his creation, it is OK with me.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/4/2009 1:00:25 PM)

Green says: "Religion tosses aside any evidence that does not coincide with their prescribed beliefs"

What evidence would that be?

JackBlackson, (10/4/2009 1:42:42 PM)

Evolution makes no claims about the origin of the universe or the planet, or even the beginnings of life.

If you don't understand this, and don't agree with what evolution is and what the theory says, then we can't have a discussion about it. If you can't read and comprehend something as simple as "Evolution describes the process by which populations of living organisms change over time", then it's pointless to even attempt to discuss it with you. You are being intellectually dishonest, or willfully ignorant, either of which I find frustrating and repugnant.

Sanity said: "No the issue CAN’T be that. We are AGREED that people take the words of Jesus out of context. The issue is that this method can never find truth anywhere. Even our 5 senses are wholly reliable – mirages, faulty conclusions as in witness testimony, etc.

No, I can’t believe what I want. That is our biggest hindrance to honesty. We reach truth by combining our experience with the most logical information available. Then what about all of the differences about the Bible?

It is merely the history of the Jews, as written by inspired people - Moses, and their prophets.

There may different honest opinions about events in such a book. Definitely, as you say, people get mixed up when they believe what they want and take words out of context."

And what do the faithful know of honesty or truth? They reject any evidence that doesn't fit with their faith, believe that "truth" can be revealed to them. None of this is honest or truthful.

And yes, you can believe what you want. Do your beliefs and the beliefs of all other Christians coincide? Are they exactly the same? Of course not. I'm sure you'll come out with that whole "they aren't TRUE Christians" garbage. That's a logical fallacy as well, and I'm sure they'd say the same about you. What is a "true" Christian anyway? Someone who believes that Christ died for your sins, right? Don't you all believe that? Then you're all "true" Christians, even those who commit murder in the name of Christ or of God.

You can believe what you want, because according to you, God gave you free will. Whether or not you are correctly following the word of God is up to interpretation, and therein lies the point. You believe that you have the interpretation right. Others will disagree with you.

And just for the record, brutality and genocide, murder of babies, raping of women is wrong, no matter what god is ordering it. Any god that would do that, no matter what the "justification", is not worthy of worship.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/4/2009 4:08:34 PM)

Green says: Evolution makes no claims about the origin of the universe or the planet, or even the beginnings of life.
Sanity: OK, I don’t claim to be expert on evolution. I understand that evolution describes the process; but thought that it was intended as explanation of our beginning. I will ignored your repugnance at my lack of this knowledge.
Green: Then what about all of the differences about the Bible?
Sanity: What differences? Jesus was crucified because people HATED his message. Of course, many STILL DO. Many antagonists find fault with the Bible..
Green: And yes, you can believe what you want. Do your beliefs and the beliefs of all other Christians coincide? Are they exactly the same? Of course not. I'm sure you'll come out with that whole "they aren't TRUE Christians" garbage. That's a logical fallacy as well, and I'm sure they'd say the same about you
Sanity: Wrong about me again. All Christians beliefs are not exactly the same; BUT ALMOST ALL CHRISTIANS’ BELIEFS ARE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME. Christianity is the largest religion in the world with 2 billion followers. Check what these people agree on – not what their detractors say. I referred you to the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed . Differences are mostly ONLY preferences. with their faith, believe
Green: “And what do the faithful know of honesty or truth? They reject any evidence that doesn't fit that "truth" can be revealed to them. None of this is honest or truthful

JackBlackson, (10/4/2009 5:13:57 PM)

Okay, so you have no knowledge of what the Theory of Evolution states, you have a misconception and a conflation of the definitions of evolution, abiogenesis, the big bang theory, and yet you still call the Theory of Evolution a flawed theory?

I refuse to argue this with you. I would advise you to actually study a biology text or get a copy of The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, or even check out sites like Panda's Thumb and talkorigins to learn about what the evidence shows.

As far as differences in the bible... they're everywhere. The fact that you choose to ignore them speaks volumes. A Google search for "contradictions in the bible" brings up infidels dot org as the first hit. That list brings up about 50 or so.

Jesus wasn't crucified because people HATED his message... LOL! Check out opensourcetheology dot net/node/300

equity, tulsa (10/4/2009 5:50:13 PM)

great discussion wonderful conversation i learend something thank you Mr Husibi for this conflict??????????

Loktari, (10/5/2009 3:07:11 AM)

I agree that religion is about choice: it is about choosing your own reality.

There are two recurring logical flaws that bring religion crashing down:

1. No questions are answered; instead of an incomprehensible natural reality, you have an incomprehensible and statistically irrelevant God figure.

2. No actionable knowledge is acquired: basic questions like the age of the earth, the age of the universe, even the method by which life was formed will get entirely different answers even from the people following the same religion.

Your enemy in rational debate isn't an atheist, it's your fellow religious folks.

Loktari, (10/5/2009 3:11:32 AM)

To people arguing about which religion has (more) blood on its hand: I think that's a futile point.

All religions suffer from very similar logical flaws and they all have in common that they deny the reality and finality of Death. Hence, they should be called Athanatists.

Logically, it doesn't matter to which degree a religion is or isn't peaceful: the claim of a statistically irrelevant being that gives each of its followers different instructions is enough material.

Basil, Tulsa (10/5/2009 7:41:20 AM)

"For some reason you have a lot of hate for Arabs and Muslims, which left me wondering why?"

---------

It's very regretable if this is how I've come across. God loves all mankind, and by His mercy, He sent Jesus Christ to destroy to power of death over each of us. It's a free gift that men and women of all races can receive. He desires that each person will be healed and brought back into communion with Him, rather than perish in their self-inflicted corrupted state of existence.

Islam promises no hope to reconcile fallen man to God, so I oppose it. It does not diagnose man's condition accurately, and therefore it is hopeless to provide the spiritual therapy needed to heal anyone. God does not desire the death or eternal suffering of sinners, but that they will repent and be saved.

Some western Christians have corrupted the true understanding of how we are saved, suggesting that God seeks to, or justly decides to, punish sinners and send them to hell, which is absolutely wrong. In our corrupted state, none of us can return to communion with the pure, holy God. Our corruption darkens our hearts and makes entering into His presence impossible. His presence is a burning fire to the corrupt, but He desires that we will be healed and returned to our natural good nature, in His image and likeness. Then we will be able to exist in His holy presence.

Loktari, (10/5/2009 12:27:44 PM)

Basil writes: "Some western Christians have corrupted the true understanding of how we are saved, suggesting that God seeks to, or justly decides to, punish sinners and send them to hell, which is absolutely wrong."

Are you seriously trying to convince an atheist that other Christians are wrong? :-)

It really should not be up to atheists to decide who is or isn't Christian or whose interpretation of the Bible is correct.

The answer is:
- All people who claim to be Christian are Christian.
- All interpretations of the Bible that involve supernatural claims or abilities are false.

Basil, Tulsa (10/5/2009 1:37:42 PM)

Loktari,

With any historic communication you must study what the original intended message was versus what may have been later incorrect interpretations of that message. The teachings of Jesus Christ are not exempt from the possibility of corruption by later audiences. Some believe the Holy Spirit is guiding their understanding, but in reality we see that this isn't true, since there are tens of thousands of different denominations which disagree on significant points of belief.

We must look back to what had been believed and taught since the beginning, and where each of the other denominations or traditions began. The Orthodox Church has maintained a clear continuity of belief and worship since 33 AD. This is evidenced in the writings of all the Church fathers, the earliest liturgical texts specific to the Christians, which were very similar to the pattern of worship God had established among the Jews before Christ was sent.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/5/2009 2:13:17 PM)

My post was beeped off yesterday, and I have been trying to understand why. In view of the similar posts which continue to appear, it is hard to imagine what I did.

Must have been my mention of a denomination by name - but it was the comments were not antagonistic. I merely was illustrating how that, though we disagree on certain points, core beliefs (basic and salvation related) of all main-line Churches and in agreement.

I am thankful for all Christian Churches, especially the one I mentioned, because its contribution has been so great.

Thanks, Green, for pointing out my mistake. I caught it; but too late. I apologize.

Syrian Muslim, (10/6/2009 1:42:07 AM)

I was sorry to read this article, and I pray for Mr. Husibi. It has been well-known in the Islamic community (esp the Syrians)that he is a Atheist and has been for years. No one cared about this decision even if they don't share it, and everyone continued to be nice to him. He was in the hospital recently and many people visited him and checked on his wife to see if she needed any support (not divorce money, just casseroles!). I wonder now why he is suddenly giving lectures? I doubt anyone threatened him, but he doesn't need to attack others' faiths and beliefs. Sounds like a sad attempt to get attention.

Syrian Muslim, (10/6/2009 1:45:04 AM)

I was sorry to read this article, and I pray for Mr. Husibi. It has been well-known in the Islamic community (esp the Syrians)that he is a Atheist and has been for years. No one cared about this decision even if they don't share it, and everyone continued to be nice to him. He was in the hospital recently and many people visited him and checked on his wife to see if she needed any support. I wonder now why he is suddenly giving lectures? I doubt anyone threatened him, but he doesn't need to attack others' faiths and beliefs. Sounds like a sad attempt to get attention.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 6:25:40 AM)

Bud,

Your posts demonstrate a significant ignorance of the life of Christ. If you had a reasonable working knowledge of what He taught, you'd see the significant difference between His life and teachings and any other gods before Him.

Unlike the passionate Greek gods, Christ taught ideas which were revolutionary at the time. Teachings which don't appeal to our fallen condition, but direct us toward purity of heart and god-likeness. The other so-called gods, didn't act any better than humans, in their fallen state. They were full of ungodly passions. Nonetheless, even in their weaknesses, some of these earlier false gods, like the Hebrew prophets, all prepared the way for the coming of Christ. Even the Greek philosophers prepared a path for our understanding of the work Christ came to fulfill. They gave us ideas which prepare our minds to grapple with the mystery of Christ.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 7:06:18 AM)

". . . to instill fear of the unknown and supernatural in order to control them."

Or to reveal some of what is not known, so that we can make good choices, repent, and seek healing from our fallen condition in preparation for entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

Science is a valuable resource for understanding our world, but it cannot reveal, or give any information whatsoever, about the mysteries of life beyond the natural world. Coming to conclusions about God and what exists beyond our physcial surroundings is a misuse of science.

Loktari, (10/6/2009 9:02:21 AM)

Basil,

You're skirting the issue.

The logical consequence of you being right is that hundreds of millions of Christians are not.

If another Christian makes a claim that contradicts yours, how exactly do you expect an atheist to respond?

Should we tell them "no, you're not a real Christian because Basil said so"? What if they say "Basil is full of crap, he's not a real Christian".

Loktari, (10/6/2009 9:19:29 AM)

Basil writes: "... or give any information whatsoever, about the mysteries of life beyond the natural world."

No, religion only gives the illusion of information.

Even a simple question like "how old is the earth?" cannot be answered consistently by Christians.

Thus, my claim stands that religion gives you the feeling that you have answers without actually having answers.

Relax23, TULSA (10/6/2009 9:36:57 AM)

Basil,

I Think You Are Basil Abdi From Syria ... Is That Right ?

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 9:58:02 AM)

"Should we tell them 'no, you're not a real Christian because Basil said so?'"

No, Loktari, I was raised with a very different understanding of the message of Christ, but through careful examination of the evidence of what Christ had taught, I became Orthodox. There is clear empirical evidence, but sadly most people put more time deciding on a good car to buy, than the faith the observe.

Please, scruitinize anything I say.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 10:27:41 AM)

"No, religion only gives the illusion of information.

Even a simple question like "how old is the earth?" cannot be answered consistently by Christians."

______

Exploration into spiritual matters requires different methods, than those used in scientific discovery. Spiritual study is limited to making conclusions about spiritual life, and is misused if it is used to make scientific conclusion about the age of earth or other conclusions about the natural world.

We can conclude through spiritual discovery that God is the origin of all visible things, but we shouldn't go beyond that, to suggest we know how He did this, since little of that process has been revealed to us, or even really matters spiritually. In the west, scholaticism has been misued to offer often convoluted explanations of spirutal realities, while some Christians do the reverse by using spiritual knowledge to answer physiological mysteries. Each discipline must understand its limits when educating us on its area of study, or crazy, illogical things are produced.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 10:29:37 AM)

Relax23,

No, I am not Mr. Abdi. I would hate for him to possibly suffer due to my actions.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 11:22:15 AM)

"there is no physical or historical proof of a man god called jesus ever existed."

_____________

His life is more well-documented than any other historic person from ancient times. When His message, aside from the way it has been distorted by some, was a positive, revolutionary one, so why are you in denial of his existence? What benefit is there to refusing to accept he did, in fact, live among us and offer a path to healing from our normal selfish way of living?

Loktari, (10/6/2009 12:55:57 PM)

Basil writes: "Spiritual study is limited to making conclusions about spiritual life, and is misused if it is used to make scientific conclusion about the age of earth or other conclusions about the natural world."

That's not unreasonable. Unfortunately, not all Christians hold this view. Rather, there are powerful organizations that advocate e.g. that the earth is only 6000 years old. We also often hear elected politicians making similar statements.

So, while *you* may hold reasonable points of view along the lines of non-overlapping magisteria (see Stephen J. Gould), other Christians are broadcasting *their* message a lot louder than you are.

Thus, the point: who exactly is in charge of the Christian narrative?

I maintain that it puts an atheist in a strange position if one Christian dismisses the (religious) view of another Christian.

Loktari, (10/6/2009 1:49:06 PM)

Basil writes: "His life is more well-documented than any other historic person from ancient times."

In which sources other than the Bible?

But, it is irrelevant whether or not he existed. We know of thousands of other prophets throughout history who did exist (or still exist) and whom we agree were false prophets.

Thus, the claim that he did exist need not be disputed.

Basil writes: "What benefit is there to refusing to accept he did, ..."

I do not object to Jesus having existed and having had some positive philosophical points of view. I only object to any supernatural claims that he and others made.

Now you may point to a range of biblical claims as evidence (people being healed, followers wanting to die for him, followers seeing him after his death, etc, etc) and I can point to obviously false prophets (e.g. in suicide cults) who did exactly the same.

Now you can say that your proof against other religious views is that yours is correct and thus, logically, theirs are not.

An atheist can use a similar argument: we can assume, hypothetically, that a God figure exists. What we find is that its signature is logic and consistency. Time and again, we find that, no matter where we are on earth and no matter which part of material (i.e. created) reality we explore. The language of the universe is mathematical.

Thus, we conclude that this hypothetical God loves logic and consistency. This gives much better and clearer answers e.g. to questions about why there's injustice or illness in the world. They are side-effects, rather then events and things upon themselves.

Thus, our hypothetical God is true and by extension, yours is not.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 2:23:46 PM)

"Thus, the point: who exactly is in charge of the Christian narrative?"

The Church, which was intended to remain one, just as God is one, is responsible for the correct transmission of these teachings. The existence of multiple denominations is an unbiblical reality and has led to the current state of confusion about what Christ's teachings are.

The Orthodox Church has preserved the original understanding of the gospel, but due to the great schism, in which the Patriarch at Rome broke allegiance with the other four major Patriarchs in Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, and Constantinople, a growing distance in belief has occured among western Christians. The eastern Church faced many troubles, but remained united. The various Orthodox national churches (Greek, Russian, Bulgarian, etc.) are united, not by an authoritarian structure, like the Roman Catholics, but by their mutual adherence to the orginal traditions of Christ. As long as they maintain these teachings, they remain One, Holy Universal Church.

Basil, Tulsa (10/6/2009 2:35:18 PM)

"In which sources other than the Bible?"

There are many other writings, both secular and spiritual from the 1st century after Christ that reference his existence. I have a text containing references to him written by the Roman athorities, speaking about the followers of the crucified one, plus the letters of Saint Ignatius and the Didiache (or Teaching of the Twelve), containted in a collection of writings called the Apostolic Fathers.

Basil, Tulsa (10/7/2009 6:28:27 AM)

". . . that decided in the 6th century what to put in and what to keep out of the bible."

Another factual error. In reality, the Church had already been copying and using the books and letters that were later officially canonized at the First Ecumenical Council in 325 A.D.

One requirement to be part of the canon of authoritative scripture is that the writing must have been written directly by an apostle who was in direct contact with Christ, or someone who was in direct contact with an Apostle, so the information was received from a primary source, rather than secondary accounts of the events of Christ's life.

Basil, Tulsa (10/7/2009 6:49:53 AM)

"Some say the "best" parts of several religions and tradition were mixed to create christianity . . ."

You can make blank claims like this one, but can you name one religion which had taught what Christ presented? Which religion taught us to love our enemies, forgiving those who abuse us, to give without consideration of your own needs, to seek reward in heaven, rather than in this fleeting temporal life, self-denial, equality of all races and both genders, etc.

What Christ presented was more than just another philosophical system, although that element exists within Christianity. He presented a Way for us to return to communion with God, from our self-inflicted exile caused by our darkened hearts. He destroyed the power sin and death has over us, so that we can be restored to our true nature of god-likeness.

Loktari, (10/7/2009 7:02:33 AM)

Hi Basil,

You may have arguments why your particular denomination is better than others, but other denominations point to new interpretation or to new revelations (e.g. Mormons) to claim that theirs is the right one.

So, how come the majority of Christians is *not* in charge of the Christian narrative, yet all claim to be?

'Sanity', for example, says there are 2 billion Christians in the world and it's thus the largest religion. Yet, whenever we say "okay, but millions of Christians say X", you guys go "ahhh, but they aren't really Christians".

You cannot escape the fact that there are logical issues here.

Basil, Tulsa (10/7/2009 8:31:16 AM)

Loktari,

I'd be the first to acknowledge that the narrative has been derailed, taken captive, and sabotaged by those groups who broke away or developed independently of the original apostolic Body of Christians. Christ commands us to be one, which means literally one Body united in faith and practice, rather than thousands of groups practicing their own form of the faith.

Unity should be based on each groups preservation of the true teachings of Christ--this is what unites the various national, or local, churches within the One Orthodox Church. All the local churches from the time of Christ until now are united in full communion with one another, as long as they preserve the true faith. If any groups fails to uphold the true faith, they become divided from it, which is something that should be avoided at all costs.

The needed solution is for all Christians to return to the orginal faith to reestablish unity and present one unified narrative of the truths Christ revealed.

Basil, Tulsa (10/7/2009 10:27:01 AM)

Billy8,

325 A.D. (that's 4th century) --First Ecumenical Council in Nicea, bishops from throughout the empire prayerfully come to a concensus on which books should be included in the canon of biblical books. These books had all been written before the close of the first century A.D., were already being propigated among the Christians, and any questionable writings of uncertain authorship were ejected.

Basil, Tulsa (10/7/2009 1:43:45 PM)

Zoroastrianism does in fact have some elements of truth within it, as all religions do, which is no mystery since we all were made by a common Creator, and have His image imprinted on our hearts, since we were designed in His image and likeness. These common features dating back throughout the centuries only serve to bolster the belief that we all have some common spiritual knoweledge and experience that transcends time and cultures. Cultures completely isolated from one another have similar elements within their different spiritual beliefs--now you have the reason why, although you can remain skeptical and come up with your own hypothesis for why they share characterisitics.

Definitely some were influenced by one another. Islam has many elements borrowed from the Christians, which Mohammed encountered during his life.

Basil, Tulsa (10/7/2009 2:54:21 PM)

"The parts that you agree with are considered truth and the parts you disagree with are false, of course."

I believe Christ gave the fullest revelation to us about God, but I'm suggesting to you that the common elements of various religions, including some insular communities which had no contact with other cultures, reveals some transcendant spiritual truths. Scientific exploration can't answer this type of inquiry. You'll have see if your spiritual mind, or nous, can help grasp the posible truth of this conclusion based on the evidence.

We have another center of conciousness, our heart, although for many this spiritual mind has been silenced by their fallen condition to the point that they are unaware it even resides within them.

Basil, Tulsa (10/8/2009 8:30:24 AM)

Christ is the Eternal Tao.

Loktari, (10/8/2009 8:32:46 AM)

Basil writes: "I'd be the first to acknowledge that the narrative has been derailed, ..."

Okay, that we can agree on :-)

Keep in mind that this derailment has been done by people who speak on behalf of your religion, not by people who reject it (i.e. atheists).

Like someone else noted, we don't have a problem with a God (hypothetical or real), but with its followers.

Regardless of the true origin, I can appreciate some of the more tolerant concepts like not judging others, loving your enemies, the golden rule, etc.

One point of criticism is that people can claim with passion to follow those teachings, yet do exactly the opposite. In my opinion, it is more "blasphemous" to speak poorly on behalf of God than to speak against it.

But... we do arrive at a logical conclusion that the mechanism of reading the Bible and prayer is not by itself sufficient to arrive at a correct (spiritual) conclusion.

Basil, Tulsa (10/8/2009 9:09:16 AM)

"But... we do arrive at a logical conclusion that the mechanism of reading the Bible and prayer is not by itself sufficient to arrive at a correct (spiritual) conclusion."

Absolutely. That should be self-evident, but many Christians believe the Holy Spirit is guiding their interpretation of scripture and understanding of God, despite all evidence to the contrary. It is prideful for any of us to believe our judgement is correct, and everyone else must be deceived in their understanding to some degree or another.

According to the scriptures, the Church is to be the "ground and pillar of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), yet post "reformation" many Christians treat the Bible as the ground and pillar, or foundation, for all truth. This is an unbiblical practice, which no one should practice.

The Roman Catholic Church, in its corruption limited access to the scriptures, which helped perpetuate its corrupt practices, but the Orthodox Church has always worked to translate the service and scriptures into the vernacular language of each group presented with the gospel. Two of our saints, Cyril and Methodius, even created a written from of language for the Slavs to make these texts available to them. Saint Innocent, who was a bishop from Moscow, came to Alaska in the 19 century and translated these texts into the Aleut language so they could read them, and in the correct Christian manner brought them to Christ by his good example, rather than force, as we had seen occuring in the Roman Catholic Church in the Americas.

Also, within our worship we read the entire New Testatment scriptures, minus the Book of the Apocolypse (aka: Revelation), each year for all to hear, and normally receive instruction about what is read. So we hold the scriptures as one of the most important items used to preserve the traditions of Christ, but their original message must be preserved to ensure we are understanding what was meant.

Basil, Tulsa (10/8/2009 11:18:51 AM)

" . . . you'd laugh at it too. "
: ) Well, your comment makes me chuckle anyway. I know it's foolishness to some. That's okay, no offense taken.

Unless the sleeping, slothful spiritual mind, or heart, within us is roused from it's slumber, the spiritual life can appear like a bunch of absolute nonsense.

Loktari, (10/8/2009 12:15:21 PM)

I don't think that dismissing views as delusional is going to make for interesting conversation in this context...

Loktari, (10/9/2009 6:17:31 AM)

Not surprisingly, I don't disagree :-) In my book, *any* supernatural claim is dubious at best, be it of a religious nature or otherwise (e.g. astrology, tarot cards, etc). In that sense, the label "atheist" is a very narrow one since it defines only one of the various things a person does *not* believe in, instead of the set of philosophies one *does* believe in.

Thus, I find that the term "secular humanist" is a better label for me than "atheist", though the latter is implied in the former.

Quite honestly, I think people will always seek that "something more". If it's not religion, then it's that paranormal crap where people think they have some sort of special ability that somehow only works when it's not being tested objectively.

But, it's good to know that if you encounter a "You'll burn in Hell!!" type Christian, you'll find Basil on your side in saying it's bad behavior. Maybe for different reasons, but it's one thing to have in common nonetheless.

Where am I going with this? I don't know, I just stumbled upon this discussion by accident. I don't mind having a frank but reasonably civilized discussion with people. Maybe we can see eachother more like well-intentioned human beings instead of labels.

Basil, Tulsa (10/9/2009 12:53:22 PM)

I'll have to produce it later, but I have a book which has some quotes from Roman officials in the first century referring to Christ and His followers from the first or beginning of the second century, so there is other historic evidence, aside from the gospels.

Basil, Tulsa (10/9/2009 1:30:20 PM)

"Maybe we can see eachother more like well-intentioned human beings instead of labels."

I hope so. We all retain the divine image of God within us to some degree, regardless of our actions or unbelief. That is why it's not recessary to be a Christian, or religious, to be a good person. We are all good, because that's our true nature--our actions, when they are bad distort that nature to a degree, but don't obliterate it.

To enjoy re-union with God, as He had intended for there to be between Himself and man, Christ opened a means for our healing from whatever distortion that has occured.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 6:58:27 AM)

I commend his bravery, because unless he was clueless about Islam, he knew the mandate for apostates is death.

I pray for his safety, and hope the local authorities take these threats seriously and do all they can to protect him and his family.

Atheism is even more absurd than Islam. To suggest everything in the natural world was created from nothing is impossible and irrational. You can quibble over which faith offers the fullest understanding of the true God, Who in His wisdom designed all things, but you cannot deny an intelligent being created everything, or you're left with nothing. Atheism is intellectual emptiness.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 7:21:05 AM)

"Quran teaches in chapter 2, verse 256, 'Let there be no compulsion in religion.'"

If he's up to snuff on his knowledge of Islam, he'd know that later teachings of Mohammed are considered to supercede earlier "revelations." To get the final word from Mohammed, you've got to know which books were written in which order chronologically, because later writings, which contradict earlier ones are considere the authoritative final word--as if truth can change. This is more evidence of the absurdity of Mohammed's claim to receiving revelation from God. It wasn't an angel that delivered the Koran to him, it was either a demon or his own imagination.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 7:48:43 AM)

In the Koran, chapter 9 (particularly verses 11-12) it mentions how apostates are to be treated. Also in the Hadith, which Muslims consider to be an additional authoritative guide to faith and practice, it says:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

I offer these to help us be sober in our approach to Islam in the U.S. There may be individual peaceful Muslims, but there is no peaceful Islam. We shouldn't hate Muslims, but love them, take pity on them, and pray for their freedom from Islamic captivity.

Jester1969, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 7:58:06 AM)

Basil,

You seem to have knowledge of the Muslim faith, so I have a question. If you are born of a Muslim father, are you considered to be a Muslim?

Tony G, Tulsa (10/1/2009 7:59:42 AM)

The only TRUE force in the universe is GRAVITY. Anything else, cannot be proven.
The idea that Christians, Muslims, and other religious groups, use their MAN written text, to control the masses, and committing violence against those who don't believe in their views, is sickening. That those groups, allow fundamentalist
to control the whole group, is sickening.

I believe in God, but gave up on religion.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 8:37:00 AM)

Jester,

Muslims believe all children are born into Islam, which translated means "in submission to Allah." They would say it's through the child's parents or other circumstances that they are taken away from Islam.

In the Orthodox Christian understanding of the human condition, we agree that all children are born innocent and closely united to God, but our view of God is so different than the God described in Islam, that it cannot be said these are the same God. One is best defined as Love; whereas, the other inspires uncountable vile acts, and even attempts to make Muslims believe these actions are good and justified to spread Islam.

Our enemy is not flesh and blood, and we shouldn't hate anyone. God didn't design us to hate anyone--if we do, that is a distortion of our true nature. God desires the healing of us all, not the murder of so-called infidels or apostates. He is patient to give us every chance to repent, whereas this demon allah, demands murder, threats of violence, etc. to meet his goals.

Jester1969, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 8:49:56 AM)

Basil,


The reason I asked was I wondered if that is why Quadaffy called President Obama "our son" during his UN speech. I don't mean to imply that I think that Obama is a Muslim, I just wonder if Muslims view him as a Muslim because of his father.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 9:00:24 AM)

Jester,

President Obama is considered an apostate from Islam, so I don't know why Quadaffy called him our son. He may have been referring to Obama's African heritage (and possibly birth).

The atheist in this article is getting death threats, but I've not heard of such outrage from Muslims directed toward Obama for his apostacy. I think Muslims are happy that someone, who is at least sympathetic to Islam and may have some understanding of it, is President of the U.S. However, unless Obama is being deceitful or is himself deceived, he doesn't seem to have an accurate view of Islam, based on the actual history and fruit of Islamic belief.

Jester1969, Broken Arrow (10/1/2009 9:05:33 AM)

"He may have been referring to Obama's African heritage (and possibly birth)." -- I guess that makes Quadaffy a "birther", lol.


Thanks for your answers :-).

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 9:59:27 AM)

". . . fundamentalist Jews who kill Muslim children in the Gaza Strip."

This must be a rare occurence.

It's funny how some portray all religions as being equally harmful, bringing up rare occurences of violence or injustices committed in the name of Judaism or Christianity. These shouldn't be projected upon these faiths as a whole. It's unfair to do so. The fact that violence and injustices have occured by Christians and Jews is undeniable, but these events are comparatively much rarer than what has been seen in Islam. These aren't two sides of the same coin. One has a Savior who we should be struggling to exemplify, Who stated that we must work to love our enemies and forgive those who wrong us. We don't fulfill this perfectly, as we all must continue to take up the struggle against sin and death, but at least we have a positive model to follow, rather than Mohammed.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 1:38:47 PM)

"The bible was written by man to control the masses by way of fear."

Sounds like paranoid schizophrenia. The scriptures instruct us that we have the freedom to choose death or life, but encourages us to choose life-giving decisions, to be healed from the effects of sin and death.

Working toward being a good, whole person is also a benefit to the state, but that doesn't mean that it is a concoction of the state to manipulate the masses. History doesn't show that Christ was a puppet of any state, in fact His message was a challenge to the Roman State who worked hard for the first three centuries to crush the faith.

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 2:10:29 PM)

Billy8,

Would you say those who reject all religion are better at securing peace, love, and freedom?

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 3:07:26 PM)

The 1917 atheist communist revolution of Russia led to over 50 million murders during and after the revolution. For one example. There are many others. The worst crimes in our society and culture occur at the hands of those who've rejected or abandoned faith and reason.

Atheists are frequently some of the most hostile, crticial members of our society, from my experience. They are harsh in their attack on anyone who disagrees with them, and when backed into an intellectual corner, lash out, being unable to fulfill the requirments of a logical argument. None of them can answer the seemingly obvious question of, "If there is not intellegent creator, from where did all this stuff around us come?"

Basil, Tulsa (10/1/2009 3:09:55 PM)

Sabri, if you read these comments google "former muslims united" for a support group for those who've been smart enough to leave Islam. I've brought your situation to their attention and they'd like to hear from you.

DarwinMarx, (10/1/2009 3:18:36 PM)

Faith and reason? There is no logic or reason to faith. Where is your evidence of a god? Time and space are so vast that the human race is nothing more that a flash. Why would a creator take billions and billions of years to create mankind only for people to exist for a split second of time? Why did all this stuff have to come from someplace anyway?

opinion, tulsa (10/1/2009 7:53:10 PM)

Hi it’s me sabri ,thank you everybody you agree with me or not you still nice people ,all the story, about free thinking and every one has the right to choose the style live he likes ,if I criticized some books thousand of years old or issue hundred of hundred of years old , it’s ok but no one has the right to allow me or not ,no one owes the history my friend , we don’t know the real story behind iraq war, just few years ago ,how they are very sure in every detail ,thousand years ago and every one has the right to criticize every one, every religion has the right to criticize each other even call each other name or infidel and kill the jjjjjjjj what ever but me (sabri) I should keep it to my salve and shut up? Any way .Mr Razi Hashmi ?I did not make false assumption ,I just said my opinion and if you have the right assumption and evidences please shows us ,I’ll shash ,and yes 80% like (hamas ,hizeb allh ,jehad islami ,muslim brother,and alQaida’s the same ideology . And thank you basil I got tie I had open heart surgery 2 month ago and I have no job now that way I was easy target to every one .

Relax23, TULSA (10/1/2009 7:57:28 PM)

Mr. Husibi told Tulsa World he was a former Muslim and he just became atheist but in fact he has been an atheist since 1989 when he was 16 years old in Damascus, Syria. Syria was in alliance with the Soviet Union and the atheist party had power and influence back then. Atheism was founded and spread by making others an example for those who didn't believe by mass killings, genocide,and torture of young children, women, and men. Mr. Husibi was born from a Muslim family but never studied and practiced the Islamic faith and beliefs. When Mr. Husibi immigrated to the United States, everyone in the Muslim community was aware that he was atheist because he explained the hardships he had over there. Although he was a different faith, the Muslim community helped him find a job and shelter as they would any one else who asks for help regardless of their faith. Mr. Husibi's accusations are false and over exaggerated. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, religion, and freedom of speech. Mr. Husibi can practice any faith he wants but what the real issue is that he is criticizing other religions such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam in peoples presence. By doing so he is instigating problems and receiving negative feedback because of his negative actions. Why is he instigating? Maybe for publicity? Maybe he is proud to be an atheist? Maybe he is bored? We are not sure but what I am sure is that he should go on his way and keep his opinions and beliefs to himself and not instigate and attack others with nonsense and media. His behavior towards people in person is non tolerable and unmannered. Religion, Sports and Politics is and always will be a sensitive subject. Anyone would get the same feedback if its not OU Fan talking trash to an OSU Fan, or Democrats drilling Republicans, and in this case an atheist instigating and attacking other religions. Everyone has pride for who they are, what they do, and what they believe in, and to call anyone out on it will cause cHaOs.

opinion, tulsa (10/1/2009 9:34:50 PM)

Oh Mr relax You need realy to relax My friend no lies No false story 1989 i was 26 years old i'm 46 years old now, and soviet union communnist not atheist ,don't let people making fun of you no one fined me a shelter or even halped me anles i halped him in money or anything else and i came after i lost my business clothing manifactory 400.000$ i have been in23 country around the world.

Relax23, TULSA (10/2/2009 12:05:09 AM)

Correction: (Misprinted in my last post) "Mr. Hasibi joined the atheist group in 1979 at the age of 16", but that is not the point here. Mr. Hasibi, after reading your comments, I think your debate is very weak. I also noticed in your comments and this article that you are focusing on your financial situation such as someone offered your wife $10,000.00, you are unemployed, and you lost $400,000.00 from your clothing business. Seems to me you came under the spotlight for a pity party. Also a voice from the people that know you well in this town, you don't consider working and keeping a job as a high priority and you like to rely on the system. In other words you are looking for a free ride.

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 12:19:06 AM)

I so agree with relax23. COme oN $10,000 your wife was offered . give me a break please. you need to get your lies straight. I agree this Sabri is looking for 10minutes of fame and a free ride.

Relax23, TULSA (10/2/2009 12:25:43 AM)

And As I free ride I mean :


* SC-2003-3415 02/27/2003 EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES AUTHORITY v. Sabri Husibi

--------------------------------------------

* CS-2003-4662 06/30/2003 TULSA ADJUSTMENT BUREAU INC v. HUSIBI, SABRI

---------------------------------------------

* CS-2003-8274 12/05/2003 SERVICE COLLECTION ASSOCIATION INC v. HUSIBI, SABRI

----------------------------------------------

I dont want to bore you with the long list I have here.... But "your welcome" for using our taxpayer funds.

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 12:42:39 AM)

WOW...This guy is not the poor guy he states he is. This guy needs to be investigated more before he is taken so serious by the paper. I am confused with Sabri statement, that he does not respect any religion.... He says one caller offered his young MUSLIM wife $10,000 to leave him and return to her native Syria.. Why is he married to a muslim from Syria???? That sounds weird.. He is contradicting himself..

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 6:29:16 AM)

In typical fashion, rather than considering that there may be something seriously wrong with their religion, some Muslims are choosing to make personal attacks against this man to try to discredit him. This pattern of attack can be seen throughout the world anytime criticisms of Islam are publicized.

CAIR is openly using our own legal system to attempt to silence any opposition and criticism of their faith. What does it take for a false religion or beliefs to prevail?--the truth to be silenced. In rational debate, Islam cannot stand, so they use all sorts of deceitful tactics to overcome opposition. Read therelgionofpeace dot com headlines for evidence supporting this claim. Facts are tricky things.

Loktari, (10/2/2009 6:38:16 AM)

It's silly for people like Basil to claim intellectual standing when they spew out fallacy after fallacy.

The silliest claim is that God must exist, because nothing can come out of nothing. This raises the immediate question "what created God then?", which is answered by "God has always existed".

But... if we allow this line of reasoning, we might as well say that the universe, or a parent-universe, has always existed.

See how this works? By introducing an always-existent God, you didn't answer any questions, you just neutralized them.

And in the end, that's what religion boils down to... neutralizing things that bug us, particularly the inevitability of Death. Not surprisingly, the whole spectrum of sometimes very different religions have some claim of an afterlife.

Loktari, (10/2/2009 6:59:42 AM)

"In rational debate, Islam cannot stand..."

Neither can Christianity ;-)

Both Islam and Christianity make claims of an invisible being that is immune to logical constraints.

Any claims that religion X is bad because some (or even ALL) of its followers do bad thing Y can be countered by "their God instructed them to do so".

Thus, you cannot reject another religion on rational grounds without rejecting your own.

Omar2, (10/2/2009 7:03:23 AM)

Basil: I enjoyed reading your comments on this thread. I have spent about 4 years learning about islam and now work tirelessly to attempt to educate other non-muslims about the "less savory" aspects of the faith and what it portends for those of us in the non-muslim world. Although my arguments are basically a rational polemic along the lines of those on Ali Sina's site FFI, I think the best way to reach people may be to incorporate more of my faith, flawed though it is, into these dicussions. You are a good example to me.

Loktari, (10/2/2009 8:16:23 AM)

HansErlingJensen: you can take other Quran quotes that say exactly the opposite. It's the same mess with the Bible. Basically, you can "justify" any opinion that comes to your mind simply by choosing which parts to take seriously and/or literally.

Not surprisingly, people are very enthusiastic about such texts to guide them ;-)

What we rational people see, however, is that when you "zoom out", you see that the same book guides people into a whole spectrum of directions.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 8:52:08 AM)

“Atheism, by definition, does not claim to have the answers to everything including the origin of the universe. Atheists do however tend to believe those things which are plausible, observed and documented or at least based on observed and documented evidence.”
That illuminates the ultimate weakness of atheism. As difficult as it is for us finite creatures to wrap our minds around the idea that an eternal God exists, there is no other rational substitute to explain the ultimate question of “From where did the natural world come?” Facing that question, the difficult reality that an intelligent creator exists, becomes the more plausible answer.

Science is limited to answering questions about the natural world, through observation and repeatable experiments using the scientific method. Exploration into spiritual realities or possibilities, requires employing other means of investigation. The tools for exploring each are different.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:00:25 AM)

“Religious adherents, on the other hand, tend to scoff at scientific findings like dinosaur bones and claim their god put them there as a prank.”
While it’s true some have said such ridiculous things, this isn’t representative of what most religious individuals believe. A “straw man” argument is when you portray the other side of the debate in the most ridiculous terms possible, and then easily torch that argument.

Creation did not occur in six 24 hour days, but perhaps six ages. To an eternal God, time has no significance. A day to God is like a thousand years to us. In the Orthodox Church, for example, we don’t believe that Genesis was ever meant to be a literal account of creation events, but it does truly testify that all things were made by God.

Do you have any idea what the probability of our complex universe occuring by accident is? This is why I am stating atheism is an intellecual cop out. Atheist create the artifical requirement that they will only believe what is observable through the 5 senses, but perhaps more exists beyond these limits. In fact, I'd argue that the existence of so many religions, many of which share core ideas about God, are further evidence that something beyond the natural world does exist. You can argue later, which religion has best identified God to us.

Loktari, (10/2/2009 9:08:45 AM)

Alix: you have to take into account that many of these people have been indoctrinated since their very early formative years. For them, this *is* reality.

As for Basil, some new points:

1. You're faced with an infinite loop of creators. A single creator is no more plausible than a group of or an infinite stack of creators.

2. No one disputes that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of a god or multiple gods. This is because those entities are immune from logic and reason: no criteria for falsifiability exist.

3. It remains strange that you dismiss the conclusions that Muslims reach when they use the same non-rational means of exploration that you use.

Loktari, (10/2/2009 9:20:41 AM)

"Creation did not occur in six 24 hour days, ..."

Millions of devout Church-going Christians beg to differ.
"Atheist create the artifical requirement that they will only believe what is observable through the 5 senses, ..."

No, that's not true at all; this is not something that follows from the scientific method. We have tons of scientific instruments to be able to observe natural phenomena that we couldn't observe directly through our human senses.

In fact, by using brain scans, we can even observe the event of religious experiences and through electrical stimulation, we can even trigger profound spiritual experiences. It's all natural.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:32:56 AM)

It's true that God is incomprehensible, but less so than the closed end conclusion that matter has always existed. That's not a valid theory of origin. God is mystery, but He has taken steps to be known by us, as recorded in Hebrew and Christian experience. You can argue about the validity of such experience, but if you are an atheist you have no explanation for the origin of the natural world.

roam, (10/2/2009 9:42:31 AM)

"It's true that God is incomprehensible, but less so than the closed end conclusion that matter has always existed. That's not a valid theory of origin."

If atheism is invalid because there's no 'valid theory of origin', then what's the origin of god?

If you have no explanation for the origin of god, it sounds like we're on equal footing.

markus1, (10/2/2009 9:42:55 AM)

be like me or die. thats one hell of a religon

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:55:17 AM)

"If you have no explanation for the origin of god, it sounds like we're on equal footing."


Except the complex design of the created world cannot rationally be explained by a series of chance occurences. This seems to support that there may have been an Architect behind the natural laws and order of the universe.

opinion, tulsa (10/2/2009 10:00:21 AM)

They are now attack me personal only thing I said all book s written by men and al qaida ideologe is respected by many Muslim, they have no clew no evidence no approve only they could do attack me personal ,and if they have strong faith and strong belief why they are mad ,I’m just a one person and they are over a billion ,over a billion muslim belief the bible and every book written by men and jesus he’s not son of god and they talk about it every day and they have it in there book and they have 1000 and 1000 of books talking abut that they criticize every religion every group, but no can attack us .
this free society and i did not say one bad word or any disrespect word ,i respect evry person to choose his religion his belive but i disagree with some storys or some ideologe my friend no one agree with no one but i'm talking in supper nice way/

roam, (10/2/2009 10:01:06 AM)

Just because something is complex, doesn't mean it couldn't happen by chance.

However, if an Architect created the complex universe we live in, this Architect must have been at least or more complex than the universe. Which means that that Architect would have had to have a creator.

Loktari, (10/2/2009 10:07:45 AM)

"... but if you are an atheist you have no explanation for the origin of the natural world."

Stephen Hawking begs to differ :-)

From my perspective, an incomprehensible God is the cop-out: anything that cannot be understood or explained can be attributed to God being a mystery or moving in mysterious ways. So, we still have no answers, just nicer questions.

Personally, I don't find God's ways so mysterious: they are entirely consistent with a natural world being ruled by the laws of physics.

It is within this context that we humans operate, and it's within this context that we can find meaning.

ArtStop, (10/2/2009 10:08:55 AM)

While I am sorry to see what this man has been confronted with, it is regrettable that he carries his own biases with him. When he seeks to get 'fair' coverage for himself, he encourages the media to point out that he is not just against Islam, but also against fundamentalist Christianity and "fundamentalist Jews who kill Muslim children in the Gaza Strip." Does no one else see anything wrong with that?

Jews did not go into the Gaza Strip seeking to kill children, nor did they ask Hamas to conduct militant operations from civilian centers. While innocent people were killed, this was not intentional, not focused on children in any way (to the contrary, they tried to avoid doing so as much as the situation let them) and was also a consequence of Hamas' setting up the battle zone in family neighborhoods.

Second issue, and more concerning to me, is that the Jewish people who went into Gaza were not 'fundamentalist' Jews. This was not a 'religious' mission nor was the Israeli Army acting out of a 'religious belief' (as opposed to the suicide bombers sent by Hamas who are indeed seeking entry to heaven and their reward of 72 maidens). The people in the Israeli Army are a reasonable cross section of the people of the nation, of varying religiosity, and their motivation in going to Gaza was to seek an ending to the terror and destruction caused by a bombardment that has been going on for years. This was not some 'fundamentalist' crusade, this was self preservation. Had Hamas stopped shooting rockets when Israel imposed sanctions, the invasion would not have happened. If Hamas had stopped when Israel warned of the potential invasion, things would have been different. But Hamas would not stop, and so Israel invaded. We all know that, or should if we had our eyes open.

This man may be coming to an awareness of the hatred that the Muslim world has for those of its own who leave the fold, but he is still burdened by the hatreds that the Muslim world have for those who are of other faiths and nationalities.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 10:23:46 AM)

The person posting under the username "opinion" is not likely Mr. Husibi. Someone who speaks publically at atheist meetings would be more articulate that these posts.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 10:31:47 AM)

"I find it absolutely laughable that people are saying Christianity is better then Islam when it comes to violence. To those I have one word: Crusades."

While you can object to whatever you like, to suggest both religions are equal is ignorant. As far as the crusades, they began for the noble reason of freeing the Holy Land from Muslim invaders. Unfortunately this cause became corrupted and the last crusade was nothing more than a bunch of hired thugs who sacked Christian Constantinople, stoled her riches, and left her in a beliguered state, to be later captured by the Muslim Ottoman Empire.

Jesus taught a faith of peace, forgiveness, unconditional love, which we all should seek to carry out to the best of our ability. Mohammed taught quite different things.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 11:10:58 AM)

"Basil: I enjoyed reading your comments on this thread."

Omar,

Thanks be to God. As you know, Islam justifies deceit and many other evils, in the goal of spreading Islam. The more we can shed light on this, the less effective such tactics will be. Truth will prevail, and the fact that such means must be used by Muslims to spread their religion should be a big red flag to them. I pray more will see the absurdity of Mohammed's religion and seek a clearer understanding of God, and His love for all men, even while they are in captivity to sin.

Relax23, TULSA (10/2/2009 11:23:56 AM)

Dear Mr. Husibi, Unfortunately you keep going around the bushes and not telling the truth, you claim in your last comment all you said is that the Quran is written by man and your speech last Sunday you were attacking all religions Christianity, Judaism and Islam, including former president Bush and the U.S. Government about the Iraq war and the Syrian Goverment about the war in Lebanon for at least 3 hours. You want to show the people that you are Innocent and everyone is attacking you for no reason. My last comment was physical evidence to show you are relying on the system and the tax payer money. I'm assuming you are looking for a pity party and you need some financial help. Your last comment, obviously shows the most hypocrisy i have ever seen when you indicate that the Quran states that Jesus is not the son of god seems like to me that you became christian now and also I heard that yesterday you went back to the Islamic Center and talked to Sheikh Mohammed and told him that you are sorry about what you said and that you want to convert to Islam again, you also asked him to apologize to the whole Islamic community on your behalf. Now I'm starting to wonder about you, you are not a stable person and you need to make up your mind to which direction you need to go in your life, But I will give you advice for free, go find you a real job and enjoy living in the best place on earth the United States of America.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 12:44:28 PM)

"Christianity has more blood on its hands then any other religion and they justify it by using the name of god and Jesus. "Its ok because Jesus forgives me" is a common refrain. I have seen the destruction wrought by that phrase."

The first claim doesn't bear out, when held under historic scruitiny. Also the Iraqi war wasn't done in the name of Christ, but real or imagined U.S. strategic interests.

It's true that some Christians cry and moan, then tell everyone they should be forgiven, since God forgives, but that's just sad manipulation and justification on the part of that person. It doesn't reflect the message or teachings of Christ.

Many groups in the U.S. have derived from the Roman Catholic Church, which had already been divided from the larger Church as of 1054 A.D. It had become corrupted, and that corruption led to legitimate reasons for the protestants desiring reform, but rather than restoring orthodox belief in the west, protestants reinvented the faith according to their own logic and reason using the scriptures alone, outside any historic context of for understanding the original message of the scriptures clearly. What they led to is over 30,000 different denominations as well as many individuals coming up with their own interpretations of the gospel. They may all contain some element of truth, but most miss the mark by quite a large margin, when compared to what had been taught from the beginning.

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 12:56:28 PM)

Thank you relax23 for your comment. I am a active member in the community and i also heard that sabri Husibi converted back to islam with sheik mohamed and he said to give his apology to the whole muslim community. If you believe in something why are you being around the bush with it. you said you are not chicken why did you convert back to islam. You have a right to do what you want, but be a man about it and stick up for what you believe in. Do not try to play the muslim community. you are free to be whoever you want to be. Like you said we are billions and you as one person make no change. But do NOT say you converted to islam and lie to yourself and to the people who are believing your theories.. we are not attacking you... Just be honest man and keep a clean heart. Stop talking about being supper nice and start being supper honest.. Thank you

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 1:52:11 PM)

Peace, if he did in fact revert to Islam, I wouldn't be too harsh on him. Who knows for certain how many Muslims have left the faith in their hearts and minds, and only remain so in name to save their lives?

JB, Chicago (10/2/2009 2:24:14 PM)

You just can't argue with religious people. They don't use evidence.

Just disprove the existence of unicorns or fairies for me.

I also don't see how people choose what god to worship. There are so many! Zeus is pretty cool. Oh wait, it's just the religion they happened to be born into.

As soon as you realize that there is no god, and this life is it, you really appreciate it a lot more.

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 2:33:14 PM)

Basil you are very wrong. The point is if you are going to do something do it being proud. We live in the united states of america buddy. What do you mean to save their lives. This is a country of freedom. But do not deny what you say and be a hater on religions that you try to befriend and welcome into your life. You should respect all people and religions but to marry a person and start a life with a religion you do not respect is a whole different thing. there is a lot of people you deal with you may not agree with but you do not marry them and plan to start a family with them....That is nonsense....Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world Basil you think maybe all these people are converting because they are scared for there lives..... COME ON ...This country allows you to choose and do anything you please. so do NOT tell me he is scared.He is just trying to get his 10minutes of fame...

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 3:13:08 PM)

Peace,

I'm sure you've read the recent headlines of various "honor killings", which is an oxymoron, occuring around the country. A Muslim man in Michigan killed his wife, another in New York state beheaded his wife, because she wanted a divorce. Two girls were murdered by their Muslim father because they were becoming too westernized, and another 17 year old, Rifya, is hiding out in Florida, because she knows her life is at risk for leaving Islam.

You are lying about the nature of Islam, although you may believe these lies yourself, but the proof is in the fruit of your religion.

Relax23, TULSA (10/2/2009 6:06:13 PM)

Hey basil just wondering my friend are you basil abdee from Syria ? Thank you

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:11:54 PM)

The Hadith is a more authoritative source for Islamic teachings than Proud Muslim.

It says:

Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

This is why so many who do not believe in allah or his false prophet still claim to be Muslims. This is also why the Koran and Hadith should be considered hate speech, because they have incited racism, domestic violence, immorality, discrimination, and murder.

Basil, Tulsa (10/2/2009 9:14:22 PM)

From thereligionofpeace dot com:

"Although it has been perfectly acceptable under Islamic law to kill Muslims who choose to embrace another religion, contemporary Muslims have realized how weak and draconian this causes Islam to appear. (A sound philosophy does not require a death threat to retain believers). As such, there is a modern tendency to deny fourteen centuries of Islamic teaching and even the very words of Muhammad himself - at least for Western ears.


Such defenders disingenuously quote verse 2:256 which states "Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out from error" and a fragment of verse 10:99-100, "Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?" But nearly all Muslim scholars agree that both verses were spoken by Muhammad during an earlier time in his teachings, when he did not have the power to compel others. They are abrogated by later verses, such as verse 9:29, which clearly commands Muslims to fight unbelievers until they relent and either accept Islam or a state of humiliation under Islamic rule (an obvious illustration of compulsion)."

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 10:43:42 PM)

sabri im just curious if you dont belief in islam or in god why did you travel thousands of miles to find a muslim wife were there not any athiests women available.and also why when you were in the hospital after your heart surgery was fast and succesful you were saying thank god if you do not belief in god because several muslims that visited you before you had the surgery heard you crying and begging for god to cure you and god gave you life and new hope and you deny that he had anything to do with it maybe this time you wont be as lucky so open your eyes and think about what you are saying before its too late i hope as well as all other muslims that god guides you too the right path because only allah can guide you and if you really love and care about your mother maybe you should call and ask her what she thinks about islam.inshallah i will pray for your mother that her son wakes up and smells the hummus just a little joke for a man who has become a joke

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 10:53:20 PM)

parsley i mean basil you bring up cases about honor killings in islam so you mean to tell me the lady that drowned her five kids because jesus told her to or people that go on killing sprees and claim jesus told them to mean they are beliefing christians dont think so..

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/2/2009 11:08:04 PM)

Thank you so much corntrader 19 on your comment. That is such a GOOD point. This man has too many fake stories...30 calls Please..and is someone threatens your life would your comment be i am not mentioning any names. I would for sure report the name and an assult attack.. come on .

Relax23, TULSA (10/2/2009 11:31:46 PM)

The last comment we heard from Mr. Husibi was ''opinion, tulsa (10/2/2009 10:00:21 AM) '' I hope he is OK .. Mr. Husibi if you are in the hole stop digging

mars70, (10/2/2009 11:48:27 PM)

I am Mr. Husibi's friend, and we always have long discussions about religions, and his believes. And one thing I need to make it clear to everybody that Mr. Husibi and everybody ells have the right to believe the way they want to believe, but as I always told him he is an extremist atheist .and as everybody know you don’t have to be religious to be an extremist. And that’s Mr. Husibi's is problem .I am not a Muslim and I am not a Christian to I am not religious but I am not an atheist to I have my own believes about god but any way this is not important now.mr Husibi u can believe in anything or in nothing that’s your right but don't insult people and don't make vales statements, and must important don't lie, you know as I know that you didn't lose everything in Syria because of your believes, you lost it because of the hit that the economy toke in the Arabic golf after the first war(desert storm ) and because of the high interest on the money that you barrowed from the others .and by the way you didn't step a foot in Lebanon as a soldier. And you never were a fighter or witness an action or a war you spend your time in the service at a training school in Syria. So just be a man and say the truth. Do not try to an act like victim. And for those they don’t know Syria is a place where Christians, Muslims, Jews, and other religions live in peace and harmony. And by the way Syria dos have atheist people and they are living in the country in peace and they are protected by the law like everybody else. The problem is not in the religion Islam Christianity or any other the problem is in extremist, witch each religion has it fear shear of those ideates like Basil and his comments on this topic, can't you guys see the hate in his words. And back to Mr. Husibi you know that you didn't receive death threats, you know that was your people just blaming you for the vales things you said because the care for you they are the same people that helped you before in your hard times like your last surgery. My friends don't play this dirty game, and as (relax23) told you enjoy living in the greatest country on the earth. Money is not every thing.
: Communist are not atheist are you joking I thought you are smarter than that.

mars70, (10/3/2009 12:39:51 AM)

basil
A bout honor killing you should read and get some knowledge on topics before you start talking about it. My friend I don't support the honor crime, bout honor crimes has to do with tradition, and way in life, and have nothing to do with religion, I know that you are not can understand what I am trying to explain to you , because you don't have any knowledge about what's that mean , I am can tell you one thing christens in the middle east do comet honor crimes as much as Muslims and everybody ells. That doesn’t make it right but this the way it is a gain it’s a tradition. And recently the Syrian law and under a public demand stop the excuse for the honor crimes . in another words if a person comet an honor crime he might face the maximum penalty as any other murder.

mars70, (10/3/2009 12:42:27 AM)

sorry miss print the way of life

peaceonearth, tulsa (10/3/2009 9:43:10 AM)

Mr. Sabri please comment regarding all these questions we are asking you about. I am so waiting to hear your response. You were so ready to interview with the paper at least be ready to answer our questions... Please. Hope you are still in good health. Mars 70 thank you so much for your comment .. You are so respected with your words of wisdom. Life is so much more peace with people like you ..

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 9:59:39 AM)

Bud Green said: “Faith and reason are mutually exclusive; you must abandon reason to rely on faith”

Nonsense! Faith is a conviction based on evidence. It stops short of absolute proof, leaving room for choice. The God of the Bible gives us a consensus of proof, and on that basis invites us to His family. Can’t beat that offer. Can’t find a more ideal morality to be a part of.

Relax23, TULSA (10/3/2009 10:08:41 AM)

mars70, Thank you so much for your comment it just make a lot of seance...

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 10:11:11 AM)

Bud Green said:

"Scientists debate what is known and has been observed, documented and tested. Creationists allow themselves speculation, baseless claims, deceit, lies and biblical fantasy to claim "truth". Creationists dismiss any and all evidence that does contradicts their preconceived dogma. We call them science haters for a reason"

ABSOLUTELY FALSE: Scientists DO DEBATE what is known and has been observed, documented and tested – and then they force their FALSE conclusions upon society.

True science does not contract Christianity. Evolution is an unproved theory with many contradictions. Christians do hate evil, not people.

Relax23, TULSA (10/3/2009 10:25:03 AM)

Peaceonearth,, thank you for all your comment's I think Mr.. Husibi he can't face the truth and the reality . I think Mr.. husibi forgot for a moment they are some people knows him very will and knows his back ground even in Syria. How ever I wish him well and he need to go on with his life and find him a real job .

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 10:29:46 AM)

Loktari answered the following post:

"In rational debate, Islam cannot stand... Neither can Christianity; Both Islam and Christianity make claims of an invisible being that is immune to logical constraints. Any claims that religion X is bad because some (or even ALL) of its followers do bad things can be countered by "their God instructed them to do so". Thus, you cannot reject another religion on rational grounds without rejecting your own”

THE GOD OF THE BIBLE DOES NOT INSTRUCT PEOPLE TO DO BAD THINGS . SELF DEFENSE IS NOT BAD. In the Old Testament when God’s presence was visibly present (in cloud by day, fire by night) and when God personally led his Nation, he had every right to lead them into war. Christ came TELLING US NOW to love our enemies, do good to them who persecute us. This is Christian. Hate and aggression is not.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 10:51:54 AM)

Ryan 7 says:

“Christianity has more blood on its hands than any other religion and they justify it by using the name of god and Jesus. "Its ok because Jesus forgives me" is a common refrain. I have seen the destruction wrought by that phrase. I watched a man cheat on his wife and cast out his kids and when confronted with it, he used a similar phrase. No, its not ok because Jesus forgives you. Stop using Jesus as an excuse for the bad choices you make. Murder is still murder, and being a bad person still makes you a bad person regardless of whether Jesus forgives you are not.”

Ryan has a complete misunderstanding of Christianity. It is a personal relationship between man and creator, whose members meet together; but the true membership is kept only by god.

He claims that we say evil is “ok because Jesus forgives me” and this is a common refrain. FALSE! Christians do not say evil is ever OK. What they say is that those who sincerely repent and change their ways are forgiven. It says we, as a child of the creator, always have that option – else all would be lost – because it is impossible for anybody to live a sinless life.

JackBlackson, (10/3/2009 12:15:33 PM)

Sanity, you are so ignorant of your own religion, it is pathetic.

Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword"

You can find justification in the Bible for any act, evil or otherwise.

Your god ordered the murder of pregnant women and children in the bible. Babies. Dash their heads on the rocks, I believe, is the form of execution ordered by your god in the bible.

Is this not evil? How do you justify this evil that your god ordered?

Idiocy and hypocrisy are the antithesis of what I believe. I cannot abide any religion that orders any violence against any other person or persons. This is basically all of them, so I reject it all.

Also, what are your problems with evolution? Care to back up the erroneous statement that evolution is an unproven theory with many contradictions? Because if you ACTUALLY study and understand what the scientific Theory of Evolution states, you will find that it is not false, and does not have contradictions. The FACT of evolution is observable and nothing in Biology makes sense without the FACT of evolution.

Sure, you can copy and paste from a million creationist websites, but all of those have been shown to be false and misrepresentations of actual scientific facts. Go ahead... tell me how the first law of thermodynamics says evolution can't happen. Go ahead, man... I'd love to have some actual debate with creationists, but they aren't interested in actual debate. They do not ever accept FACTS and never ever give any facts to support their "theory"(flawed hypothesis, hunch) of creationism or "intelligent design" (same exact thing, no debate necessary).

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 1:38:50 PM)

Jack Blackson said:

Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword:" That is found in Matt:10 - which says exactly the opposite of what Blackson suggests.

You can take any written document and make it say anything you want, IF YOU PICK PARTS OUT OF CONTEXT.

Now let's see what the Bible really says about Jesus bringing the sword.

In Matt. 10, Jesus is about to die and is sending out his apostles to Israel only. He describes what will happen to them: they will be dragged before the law, be flogged, to which, instead of resisting, they are to bear witness of Him. He tells them they will be hated because this salvation message will cause brother to rise against brother, father against child and child against father. This is the sword that Christ brought, it would be used against Christians, NOT BY THEM. aLL who overcame would receive eternal life.

JackBlackson, (10/3/2009 1:55:11 PM)

You have every right to disagree, but facts are not a matter of agreement or disagreement.

These things I speak of are in the Bible. I can't quote chapter and verse, as I'm not interested in memorization of such things, but you can search Google for "The Skeptics Annotated Bible" or "biblical atrocities" or any number of other similar phrases.

Christians, and most every group of people of faith, will follow what they choose to follow in the "holy" books. If you are a relatively sane person, you will find scripture that supports "peace and love" and "forgiveness" and "redemption". If you are a psychopath, you will find "d*mnation" and "punishment" and "retribution". The problem is that anyone can use any "holy" book to justify any number of atrocities, from infanticide, to murder, to rape, to genocide. That you claim to know that Christianity is a peaceful religion makes no difference to the mountains of evidence in the Bible and throughout history to the contrary.

You may know peaceful people who happen to be Christian, as I may know peaceful people who happen to be Muslim, or Jewish. That does not mean that the religions themselves are peaceful. That does not mean that the PEOPLE who use their religions to justify murder or any other violent act are not "true" Christians or Muslims or Jews. It means that their religion has facets that they personally choose to either follow or ignore. Saying that someone who chooses to ignore the violence in their religious text is any more of a follower of that religion than someone who chooses to embrace it, is inherently false. The evidence is there in the Bible, in the Koran, in the Talmud. You can deny the evidence all you like, but that doesn't make it any less factual.

The mistake most faithful people make is to assume that atheists don't know anything about the religions the denounce. On the contrary, most atheists have studied the Bible, or Koran, or whatever religious text they probably were a member of until they decided that it was all false and there was no evidence of a god. We usually have to study the Bible more than the average Christian, only because we tend to want to know everything about the religionists arguments so we can counter those arguments with logic and reason. I can only assume formerly Muslim atheists would know more about the Koran than your typical Muslim believer for the same reasons.

JackBlackson, (10/3/2009 2:05:45 PM)

And of course, we come to the other problem with religion. Interpretation.

You may interpret what Jesus said one way, and another may interpret it another way.

And you're certainly right that you can pick things out of context and use them to justify anything. THAT IS MY POINT. It doesn't matter if it's in context or not, interpreted one way or the other. It can be USED to justify ANYTHING. Peace or war. Compassion or cruelty.

Creationists have been picking things out of context to try to attack evolution too. Is it only okay if you're "Lying for Jesus"?

See, one person may interpret that passage as Jesus saying that the sword would be used against Christians. Others would interpret it to say the sword would be used by brothers against brothers and fathers against children in order to convert them to his beliefs... it's all in the way you as a PERSON want to interpret it. If you are a peaceful person and want to believe that you will be persecuted for being a Christian, then you will interpret it similarly to "Sanity"'s interpretation. If you are a power mad fanatic and believe you are ordained by god to subjugate and convert the non-believer, then you will interpret it the way COUNTLESS people through the ages have done.

equity, tulsa (10/3/2009 3:01:17 PM)

Just for the record : no friend step his friend in his back and tell lies story ,or ?…that how it goes in your culture shak mohamed told some one ,I would like to talk with Mr husibi and this guy called Mr husibi and give him shek mohamed phone number and he called him right the way skek mohamed ask Mr husibi to meet him ,but ask mr husibi no one could know any thing what we talk in this meeting even the news paper Mr husibi said I promise no one would know ,and I promise no muslim like to know what they talk about . .and nothing change Mr husibi …only if they have evidence he is men to stood and say his opinion in front of millions .witch we should respect.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 4:03:54 PM)

Blackmon,

No, lying people use speech out of contest to mean anything.

But the truth seeker, puts speech in context. Then it almost always have a specific meaning. In this case, there is no other reasonable meaning for the use of the sword in this statement.

Dishonest people often choose what they want to believe, then bend facts to suit that choice.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 4:09:46 PM)

I apologize for the construction errors of my last post. It was too quickly sent.

It should say:

mars70, (10/3/2009 4:14:21 PM)

basil … reading all your inputs with all the hate you have it gave me one conclusion, it’s personal. For some reason you have a lot of hate for Arabs and Muslims, which left me wondering why? Then it become clear to me, I saw that you always relay on (Bukhari) when you talk from the ( hadith). Ok again I’m not Muslim, and I’m not defending Islam because I know that Muslims with more knowledge than me can defend what they believe in, and I’m not attacking any other religion to, what I’m trying to do is to tell the facts and the truth so people like you can stop poisoning incent people’s minds. Now back to Bukhari and his hadith, everybody with a little knowledge of Islam know that most of Bukhare’s hadith had and still have not trusted among Muslims, and there are so many debates between Muslims to consider it as a part of the -Sonah- or not. And I can tell you why, first of all Bukhari tolled thousands and thousands of hadith that he said that he heard it from the prophet and the funny thing is that most of his hadith was not supported by any other sources specially the ones that was in a complete opposite of what was known about the prophet’s personality, and disagree with the supreme law the (Quran). But the thing is if we know who the bukari was we stop wandering why he did something like that, Bukhari was not Arabic but he came from a place called (Bukhara) witch is a part of what is known now days as ( Iran ). And Bukhara people and as a history fact was known to heat Arabic people, and her was this Bukhare . Arabic was not his mother language and he can learn and remember more hadith than everybody, it’s very simple to figure out what he was trying to do. That’s why I think that you both have the same target, and most likely you are related somehow to each other.

Sanity, Broken Arrow (10/3/2009 4:19:08 PM)

Continuing again: I am sorry for these errors. Not really like me. (have a computer repair person interrupting)

Blackmon says that anything can be misintrepted.

No so! In context sentences almost always mean only one thing. When in doubt and put with a concensus of other like comments, the meaning is established.

Christ did not teach his followers to kill with the sword. He did teach them not to.

He did warn that his teaching would pit his followers and others against each other - and that his people would feel the sword.