Lance-a-lot, Tulsa (12/10/2008 10:19:45 PM)

Thank you to the four Oklahomans that have common sense.
To the one that wants to waste more money on a failed and mismanaged industry dominated by crooked unions: next election cycle, you are history.

GrannyTazzy, Tulsa (12/10/2008 11:35:02 PM)

I think the head honchoes who got their companies in this mess should' have to give up their high salaries and million dollar homes and be put on minimum wage salary and head on down to the loading dock, or the line and help build the automobiles no one can afford.

my view, Sand Springs (12/11/2008 2:12:00 AM)

The taxpayers are not going to save the Big 3. They can only save themselves by re-structuring their entire organazations. They must reduce cost across the board.

L.Hayes, will find himself in the minorty on this issue.

my view, Sand Springs (12/11/2008 2:47:46 AM)

L.Hayes, I didn't support Reagans "trickle down". People are still buying cars their just not buying from the Big 3. What happens to the auto industry is not going effect me at all.

When you are refering to posters on this thread and don't use their screen name correctly, it is considered rude.

Hijinx, (12/11/2008 3:27:53 AM)

Detroit gets it! They now understand they will have to restructure and retool but need money and time to do so. Thanks go out to the republicans from OK who decided to put workers in the unemployment line to cover their own butts. The “travesty” Coburn is your vote to bail out Wall street propping up all of THOSE failed business plans.

“Nationalizing industries in an attempt to save them has been tried before,’’ Inhofe said. “The track record is abysmal.’’ No one is “nationalizing” the auto industry. Remember Chrysler got a loan years ago and paid it back with interest. No so with the S&L fiasco!

“It does not help the American people to continue to bail out private companies who have fallen on hard
times either due to poor business practices or the current state of the economy,’’ Lucas said.

Unless of course you’re a wall street buddy of Bush.

He also questioned the creation of a so-called “car czar,’’ calling it a bureaucratic, command-and-control approach to industrial policy.

Yea, we surly don’t want ANYONE to keep track of the money or provide any oversight, heaven forbid!!

“In this fragile economy, there are businesses and entire industries struggling all over the country,’’ she said. “When do the bailouts stop?’’

They stop when NAFTA, CAFTA and the rest are repealed and American industries are back on a level playing field. And when we stop spending a billion a month in Iraq. They stop when millions of Americans are no longer in the ever increasing unemployment lines. They stop when America is back on solid ground. Until then I cant think of a better way to spend my tax money than helping my fellow Americans. Whether that’s thru direct bailouts or thru government sponsored works projects to put people back to work.

Its only tax money! What? You think they are just going to leave it in the treasury and not spent it anyway? That hasn’t happened in 8 years. So loan it to these companies to help keep middle class Americans out of the soup lines. Make sure CEOs and vice presidents receive minimal pay or put them on the street . And cut the state subsidy’s to foreign car makers that helps undercut Detroit.

The callous disregard for American heavy industry and its workers is appalling. These are American icons. Songs have been written about them. Many of us have been conceived it them. I cant recall any songs about banks or lenders! Yet they are held to a different standard and with what amounts to no oversight at all. I just cannot understand kicking American workers to the curb needlessly. I have heard many on here who blame the unions for this. This amounts to holding the bank teller at fault for the banks collapse. They work their butts off just like any other Joe punchclock but are held in contempt because many here make minimum wage or just above. That’s not their fault its yours. And I suspect many of you are the same disgruntled okies who voted for the “right to work” years ago with the promise of more and better paying jobs but what you got instead was a right to work for less and now are simply jealous.

concernedpapa, Kiefer (12/11/2008 6:42:03 AM)

Excellent post Hijinx. You have stated exactly what has happened,and what should happen.

A Tulsan, (12/11/2008 6:49:57 AM)

Obama wants to repair/replace the nations roads. Why didn't they take the entire 700 billion for that giving preferance to financial employees and auto workers' job applications. It's still work and keeping the economy strong and it gets the nations roads and bridges fixed. And, I'm sure the bill will not be nearly the 700 billion that has been and will be given away for failure in a free enterprise system!

Travis, Tahlequah (12/11/2008 7:05:35 AM)

I am disappointed in the vote of Congressman Boren. Oh well, he does support the FairTax.

Why does the U.S. have bankruptcy courts? The reason is to allow companies the chance, under supervision, to restructure and once again become a viable, profitable business. This is the route the Big Three need to take. A $15 billion loan will only keep GM and Chrysler operating for another 2 or 3 months and then they will be back asking for more.

A "car czar", a government appointee, would have direct input into the operations of the auto companies and that IS nationalization.

American workers are not being kicked to the curb, their employers have been losing market share for decades and neither the employers nor employees were willing to make the changes needed to reverse that trend.

The survival of the Big Three should be up to company management, the unions and employees, and lastly, the consumer. The consumer has been voting for years with their dollars that the Big Three are not worth saving in their current form.

If the Big Three are really so vital and viable then how about the unions loaning them the money from their pension plans and having a say in the operations and restructuring of the companies. After all, the unions have a vested interest in the survival of the Big Three.

insider9909, Cushing (12/11/2008 7:38:46 AM)

The reupublicans don't give a damm about common working people, just the rich fat cats. They didn't bat an eye at proping up financial institutions with $700 billion, but, OMG, $15 billion for the auto industry and workers, well, that's too much. The repubs are just using this as an excuse to further weaken the unions. The two senators from Alabama would ship all of our jobs and money to Japan. How patriotic is that? Does anyone understand that the American auto industry also manufactures many of our defense industry items. In time of war, do you really want our tanks, armored personnel carriers, HMMVEEs, etc, made by a country that is not necessarily an ally of our country? Way to go repubs, sell your soul for a buck.

Hijinx, (12/11/2008 7:41:35 AM)

Travis

A government appointed trustee is not nationalization but simply a watchdog over the LOAN.

Throwing Detroit into bankruptcy will help solidify consumer confidence and market share how? Not to mention short changing 100s of suppliers who simply will not make it threw any kind prolonged restructuring. Many of whom also supply the other car makers. Then what?

The UAW has repeatedly urged management to rethink their strategy to no avail. They have also strapped on a 100 billion dollar take over of health costs from Detroit as well.

Jay of Tulsa, (12/11/2008 7:48:23 AM)

UAW....that's the problem. Overpaid non-working - whiners...unions are a waste. They cause the cost of vehicles to skyrocket and the quality to plummet. There's no pride when you area union worker.

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (12/11/2008 7:52:54 AM)

Travis- your last paragraph about the Unions loaning them cash from their pension plans is very elegant. I've been trying to research it since you posted it. What I'm not sure about is whether or not there's significant cash that's actually in those plans. I think the plans are just a huge unfunded liability on their balance sheets. If that's the case, then loaning the money back to GM, Ford, or Chrysler would certainly improve their equity position, but I think the impact to cash flow would be incremental.

However, I definitely think your idea should be incorporated as a part of the BK reorganization. It would be a great way to protect the pension funds assets, because in essence they could be excluded from the BK. If the companies survive and are profitable, the pension asset would be converted back to a liability and all would be good. If they go under they lose their $$$$, which would have happened anyway.

Again, great idea in my opinion, I applaud your creativity, hadn't heard that one before.

Hijinx, (12/11/2008 7:56:31 AM)

Yea my daughter had a thriving business for several years too. With no subsided competition and full ownership of all the tooling and no labor costs and 30% markup, she did very well. Of course she still had to squeeze her own lemons.

Dr. Strangelove, Tulsa (12/11/2008 8:04:31 AM)

Jinx- agreed but consumer confidence can't get much worse. Also true that many suppliers will take a spanking. However those companies have also profited for many years from those Big 3 relationships, and they aren't just selling stuff to them, they're also selling to Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai, etal. The taxpayer will be involved anyway because we're going to provide the debtor in posession financing. The cost will just me much less, and all parties will be required to become more efficient.

These companies aren't going to go away. The American consumer knows there are too many of their cars on the road for that to happen (that's why people bought Plymouths up to the day they stopped selling them).

Giving these people a $15BB gift and not even requiring a plan until March? That's irresponsible.

Smedj, Tulsa (12/11/2008 8:17:59 AM)

Really, where is the outrage over Wallstreet's 700 Billion Dollar gift, over AIG's bailout and luxury junket, over the 3 BILLION cash pay-outs to CEOs? Instead some on here, who I doubt are millionaires, are attacking the working class. 14 Billion will keep good paying jobs for working class families. The Unions may have their faults but they are not the same crooks as those on Wall Street or in Washington. They represent working people and working families. How are Unions responsible for poor sales? They build the cars, they don't design them. But I guess many of these elitist republicans prefer to keep the rich rich and squash the little guy. Nice going Oklahoma.

anm1135, (12/11/2008 8:23:19 AM)

Everyone screaming at the Republican's about their "fat cat billionaire friends on wall street" need to stop.

Are you trying to tell me that everyone employee at Citi or BOA is a billionaire? There are receptionists, janitors, entry level clerical workers there.

Funny how no one mentions a thanks for saving all those thousands of jobs. People, the Republican's don't want the auto industry to fail, they just know that handing over a check right now is like throwing lawn chairs off the Titanic. Unless some drastic changes are made in these automotive companies, are they going to be back for more money in 6 months to a year? Bankruptcy will allow them to shed some of the burdens that are killing them right now. Mainly it will allow them to get out of those union contracts that allow workers to retire early with full pay and benefits. Even through bankruptcy, my tax dollars are still going to aid these companies, not just through a huge blank check.

TonyQ, Tulsa (12/11/2008 8:25:21 AM)

Because Republican ideology has done so much good for us in the past...

HardHeartedHanna, (12/11/2008 8:26:28 AM)

When 9/11 occurred, the government bailed out the airlines by giving them money. Overlooking the goal of getting people to travel again and restoring the tourist industry. The better solution would have been to use the bailout money to provide vouchers that travellers could use to fly free or heavily discounted to New York where they would have patronized the hotels, restaurants and other industries hurt by the calamity.

The auto bailout should be handled the same way. If we are going to have to provide taxpayer money to the auto industry, then do it by fixing the goal of selling car rather than throwing it down the well only to get them back to the hogs that they were before the meltdown. If they issued the 14 billion dollars in the form of vouchers, people would be flocking to buy cars, borrowing money, buying insurance, etc.

How many vouchers go into $14 billion?

Smedj, Tulsa (12/11/2008 8:52:43 AM)

The Democrats and Republicans both passed the Wall Street bailout, and it might have been necessary. My point is if we can bailout Wall Street with 700 Billion dollars, than saving some good jobs in Detroit is equally warranted. Yet I'm sure the Oklahoma delegation that voted against it did less out of principle and more as a hope union busting. UAW is one of the strongest unions in the country. Unions are a lobby group that runs counter to the private lobby groups that exist largely in the Republic constituency. When unions lobby they are lobbying for the middle class, that's who they represent. When Pharma lobbies they are representing their industry, regardless of those outside of it. Killing UAW would be a boon for private-corporate power in Washington.

jett rink, (12/11/2008 8:55:40 AM)

"...true free enterprise way..." is where it belongs: in the trash can of history. If you like the 'law of the jungle', then you probaly love believing 'the market' is the end all and be all.

Ronald Reagan and his minions cast a pox on our land that's been rotting lately. Fortunately, it's not 1980 anymore...except for a few Okie dinosaurs.

Legal Citizen, (12/11/2008 8:58:57 AM)

"Rep. Dan Boren, the delegation’s lone Democrat, was the only Oklahoman to vote for the bill."

>> Idiot.

THG, (12/11/2008 9:01:56 AM)

Well, I have read all these comments and find them rather interesting. For one, the Big 3 have a poor quality product with the exception of certain models. I for one own two Big 3 vehicles that are very reliable and high quality. I have owned foreign cars and trucks in the past with the same quality. The real problem for the Big 3, the product(s) built are poor in quality, they are not nice looking and do not last very long. Most people would like to buy a nice looking car that will last more than a few years with proper maintenance.
Whom do you blame? Both management and unions, they are out touch with the consumer (just like all the politicians on both sides of the isle). I do not support a bailout until there is a change of management, unions and a redesign of the product. The UAW members are paid too much for running a robot. I have visited several Big 3 automotive plants and was witness to a job anybody could perform, well above minimum wage. All workers deserve a fair wage based on the skill level of the position, not because they belong to a union.
Nice going Oklahoma? Nice going Detroit, paying too much for unskilled labor, poor work ethic and a bad product.
I guess the government should bail out all of us and spread the wealth, let’s all go to Cadillac dealer and demand a nice new car, send the invoice to Obama, I deserve it.

Legal Citizen, (12/11/2008 9:06:01 AM)

Hijinx: "A government appointed trustee is not nationalization but simply a watchdog over the LOAN."

>> Dream on. He's a puppet of the president and will DIRECT the industry based on the president's whims, which may not coincide with the market. And when the market rejects the product, we'll bail them out again. And again.

Can you say 'Amtrak'?

"Not to mention short changing 100s of suppliers who simply will not make it threw any kind prolonged restructuring. Many of whom also supply the other car makers. Then what?"

>> Do you even read what you write? ..."Many of whom also supply the other car makers..." They'll survive.

Besides, you're assuming none of those other automakers would snatch up a Big 3 company for a bargain and keep it working.

spirit07, Tulsa (12/11/2008 9:40:02 AM)

Sullivan is a Joke. Didn't he vote for the 850 billion $ bailout. He gave billions to the banks who helped created the CDO mess and he is complaining about the autoworkers and car makers. Please people kick this man out. All he ever did in life was sell 6 houses. Why do Tulsans continue to re-elect these frauds.

zzx375, BA (12/11/2008 9:49:08 AM)

The whine and cheese party has begun.