Four Sixteen Rigby, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:22:03 PM)

Union thugs? Why, who ever heard of such a thing?

peelumba, (9/1/2009 4:22:24 PM)

lol those boys are running scared!

Scott Smith, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:27:47 PM)

Sounds like the 'protection' the mob offers.

bm, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:30:01 PM)

Those councilors are wrong. They ARE privately stating a personal opinion.
The councilors will lose if they attempt disciplinary action.
I don't agree with what the firefighters are doing, but they have every right to do what they are doing and I support them 110%.

Navin Johnson, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:31:07 PM)

Sounds like the City Attorney got her law degree at Quik Trip.

nomosoetero, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:34:55 PM)

bm....sorry, but...
The firefighters do NOT have that right. The city charter specifically forbids their participation in politics. They knew this when they signed up. It's as simple as that. Time to can a few of them. They lose some pretty sweet retirement benefits.

tnt091605, (9/1/2009 4:35:58 PM)

Have they ever heard of the 1st amendment? They have the right to voice their opinions. They have a right to support who ever they want. These councilors forced them to get involved because they tried to slide in a vote that would have laid off police officers and firefighters. That is not the answer. Furloughs are bad enough. Although I understand we had to do something.

If these councilors are doing the right thing then the citizens will not listen to the firefighters.

But I sure would not vote for Westcott. He would not even step down to save his sons job!!!! And I would say I would not vote for Martinson for dog catcher but that would insult the dog catchers. He is so underhanded and has his own agendas.

tnt091605, (9/1/2009 4:38:38 PM)

nomosoetero, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:34:55 PM)
bm....sorry, but...
The firefighters do NOT have that right. The city charter specifically forbids their participation in politics. They knew this when they signed up. It's as simple as that. Time to can a few of them. They lose some pretty sweet retirement benefits.

City charter does not supercede State Laws and the constitution! The highest opinion so far states they can if off duty and not in uniform which from what I saw they were not.

Ryanoceros, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:38:52 PM)

unions, pfft.

CimeFighter, (9/1/2009 4:42:02 PM)

Scare tactics? You are right councilor. It is a scare tactic. When you are looking at cutting the manpower of police officers and firefighters that would scare a lot of people. Your own manpower study showed we need more officers! YOUR REPORT THAT THE CITIZENS PAID FOR THAT THE COUNCIL HAS IGNORED!

You are right there is a problem and it starts with the mayor and the city council.

JTR, (9/1/2009 4:42:12 PM)

What the firefighter's union is doing is campaigning! That is, attempting to persuade, not coerce, the people to vote against the candidates they do not like. The people, presumably, can choose to listen or not listen as they see fit. The counselors' argument only has merit if one assumes the people cannot think for themselves and will blindly follow what the union tells them to do. Because most of us are smarter than that, the counselors' argument is without merit and should be ignored. What the unions are doing, whether you agree or disagree with their position, is what elections are all about. More power to them.

johnny gage, (9/1/2009 4:43:59 PM)

nomosoetero........sorry, but...

Contrary to what it says in the City Charter about taking an "active part" in any campaign, etc..the City on several occasions since has gone on to CLARIFY that "active part" means while "ON DUTY OR IN UNIFORM". So has the Attorney General. Mr. Westcott, and Mr. Martinson are using the media to grandstand. Mr. Westcott asked for the support of the Union while he was contemplating running for Mayor. How quickly he changes his tune when it does not benefit him. Talk about a flip-flop.

bm, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:44:55 PM)

Let me just say I know from experience.
I'm actually surprised they didn't cite one particular civil service case in which the city cited this political activity rule.... and lost. Mr. Barber you should remember this, you wrote about it in the TW.

The councilors will NOT win this, and they would just be setting themselves up for big time embarrassment.
Like I said before, I don't agree with what the firefighters are doing, but I fully and totally support their right to free speech.

yep, Tulsa County (9/1/2009 4:45:56 PM)

Firefighters doing their own campaigning after hours and in street clothes is much different than the union campaigning.

What I find alarming is the firefighters who are blindly following the nonsense the union told them. Look at what the councilors really said. Now is not the time to be intellectually lazy, and simply swallow what story the union delivers.

DowntownNow, (9/1/2009 4:48:17 PM)

This is a real disappointment when the City's own Attorney can not differentiate between what is a state matter and what is a municipal (city) matter. How can municipal elections of City Councilors or Mayoral candidates ever be considered a state level issue? The same song and dance from Deidre Dexter, cater to those with influence and forget about protecting or upholding the laws and charter of the City which you were hired to serve. The Council should find a way to impeach this imbecile.

Navin Johnson, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:48:26 PM)

Interesting how many first-timers there are posting on this story. Shouldn't all of you be out violating the city charter.

I hate unions....

johnny gage, (9/1/2009 4:48:36 PM)

Yep,

the firefighters are "The Union". They are one in the same.

Thunder196, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:49:07 PM)

Let them come to my door. I will have a tape recorder that is voice activated. Will tape anything they say. They might scare people into removing signs, but will they remove the vote.

ACE, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:49:35 PM)

"If these councilors are doing the right thing then the citizens will not listen to the firefighters. "

IF the information that is being circulated about the councilors is true and correct. I'm still waiting for someone to look at Martinson's proposal and point me to the page that mentions layoffs.

Brooksider, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:52:07 PM)

The Tulsa Charter says, "No person in the
classified service shall take an active part in any campaign for the election of officers of the
city, except to vote and privately state a personal opinion."

If the firefighters identified themselves as such and were out talking to people either for or against an elected official or candidate, they have violated the charter. If they did not present themselves as firefighters or members of the firefighters union they were probably within their rights. Witnesses need to come forward to go on record and file complaints; otherwise it's just anecdotal incidents.

bm, Tulsa (9/1/2009 4:55:41 PM)

"privately" = off the clock

DowntownNow, (9/1/2009 5:02:24 PM)

bm...these Councilors are not wrong. The City Charter is specific, it state that “no chief, officer or sworn member of the Fire Department shall take an active part in any campaign for the election of officers of the city, except to vote and privately state a personal opinion.” If your agruments here held, then Dexter would not need to rely on this being a state issue, not municipal.

The act of going door to door to endorse one candidate over another is "taking an active part in any campaign..." My guess is these Councilors would not lose in court and the Charter should be backed up by the pandering and cowardly City Attorney.

nomosoetero...I completely agree with you, can a few of them to teach them all a lesson. There are rules, regulations, laws and guidelines for a reason. Time for someone to step up and enforce them.

The funny thing is not one of you defending the firefighter's position and saying these Councilors were looking to cut the manpower has ever documented one quote that would lead a reasonable person to believe that's what they intended. These Councilors have always sided with the need for additional manpower in both departments. If any of you took the time to listen to Martinson's presentation of the budget, he NEVER once called for a reduction in manpower. He DID call for a reduction in salary and benefits under a struggling budget given the economy to ensure that manpowere levels were never reduced to provide adequate coverage.

It was the Unions that cried reduction in manpower in order to strike fear in citizens. The Union has the ability to renegotiate salary & benefits to ensure all its members retain their jobs...they chose not to and instead emply a scare tactic. How pathetic...just further showed the greed and contempt against the City at large.

DowntownNow, (9/1/2009 5:08:08 PM)

bm..."privately" does not mean off the clock. But you go find a legal finding of fact with that regard and get back to us to support your position.

In all the opinions stated in the article above, they all point to the firefighters being in the wrong here. And poor Dexter...either she's incompetent (not surprising given recent other actions/opinions i.e. ballpark trust, assessment, TDA, ethics complaints, etc)...or she is a lackey. She could be all things but never an intellectually honest indivudual when it comes to matters of law apparently.

imightbewrong, tulsa (9/1/2009 5:09:22 PM)

Union=overpaid
Union=waste
Union=lazy
Union=intimidation etc.etc.etc

Ignatz, Broken Bow (9/1/2009 5:10:26 PM)

I doubt that the Charter would stand up to State or Federal freedom of speech challenge, but firefighters have an obligation to follow it until that occurs. This Westcott rodent sounds like a lying weinie of the first order.