One year later, Baby Veronica case still resonates

44 comments:

• lee smith posted at 8:32 am on Wed, Dec 24, 2014.

  Posts: 20

  You lose your car for non payments not your children. Many people are poor should we take all of their children. Normally rich people don't enter the military.

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• lee smith posted at 8:31 am on Wed, Dec 24, 2014.

  Posts: 20

  Jon this is lee from last year you mis represent the Simmons case. The big factors are they argued that he had no rights similar to Brown. Although he did not sign they still took physical custody of the child. Because of the Brown case the lawyer fought the custody in SC under illegal adoption and not just the ICWA that is the lesson for Brown. He would have retained custody if his counsel had not just used ICWA and when the time came for SC to grant custody there was no request from Browns attorney.
  Simmons was not in Afghanistan fighting for his country so he could travel the over 1000 miles to see his daughter. There were even questions about the fitness of the adoptive couple and the Simmons baby was in foster care for a period. Had he not had the time and resources to fight this case, he would not have prevailed. There was the signing of the order to remove the child from OK 4 months after she was already moved to help the adoptive couple retain custody. That is cause for alarm. They made it very difficult for this father with some means to get custody, although he tried within a week of birth. With all of the fighting Simmons did not get custody until the child was almost 1 year old.

  That alone could have been used by the Browns to contest the removal of Veronica. It was really a ineffective counsel that was the reason he did not win in the end. Because by that point he had the child almost 2 years and that would have weighed heavily on the courts decision. It was the lessons learned from the Brown case that really helped the Simmons case.

  Now the powerful Nightlife agency has found a way around this issue, they are really spearheading the embryo adoption. Unused embryos are implanted in a surrogate and the adoption takes place. No need to fight for babies like in the Browns/Simmons cases.

  The laws in OK still need to change to avoid situations like Browns/Simmons, the parent. It may be a moot point because couples with means like the Capobiancos and the Bixlers can adopt an embryo and pay a surrogate if necessary in the future.

  Happy Holidays Jonathan

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• Susan Williams posted at 3:35 am on Tue, Nov 11, 2014.

  Posts: 4

  Sorry, but generally, if a mother abandons a baby for, say, four months, no........ there's really nothing to argue about. Same for the father. Sorry. No legal help here.

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• Susan Williams posted at 3:31 am on Tue, Nov 11, 2014.

  Posts: 4

  I know of many foster parents, and adoptive parents, that have gone through the experience hoping for the best for the younger generation. I myself, have benefited from family/friend informal fostering for much of high school while my parents had marital and mental health issues.

  Not ever did I feel that any stipend or financial help that these people got or gave to me, even biased their feeling for me and vice versa.

  Kathleen has the right view on it. It is hard to be a foster parent (forget about the $20 per day stipend which isn't enough unless the fosterer contributes as well).

  Recently I was caring for two delightful children, and after two years, relatives stepped up right as rights were terminated. I did not fight, they are best there. Foster parents are painted with such a stiff brush. The majority of kids in foster care, are in the care of extended family members (that qualify as foster). Since 80% of kids go back to the same family (although not the same person), foster care is painted in such a negative light. Sometimes it is the family dynamic that can be a problem. Anyway, most foster/adoptive families just want to provide the best they can for a child.

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• Ron Denton posted at 1:06 pm on Mon, Sep 22, 2014.

  Posts: 101

  [thumbup] Anything to fill space, especially on a Monday.

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• Margie Stevens posted at 6:31 am on Mon, Sep 22, 2014.

  Posts: 57

  The mother (not the Indian Tribe) put this child up for adoption. One day when Veronica is old enough she will learn the truth about her birth parents and her adoptive parents and will then make her own decision which parents she wants to be around (if either). In this day and time you cannot hide the truth forever from an adoptive child. There are too many ways to find out what you want to know due to the technology that exist and changes that are being made in allowing adoption information to be available. Also court records are public records in some cases and relatives can be found--she will learn the truth one day.

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• Greg Simmons posted at 7:34 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 2328

  ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Who cares. Old news.

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• John Sakelaris posted at 7:18 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 3763

  Concerning the comment that the Tulsa World's article today "was unexpected," I must wonder if the newspapers' decision to bring this story up again reflects some influence from the fact that the World gets a lot of money from Indian tribes' casino advertising.

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• Ron Hill posted at 6:34 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  Renee, you have heard wrong.

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• Ron Hill posted at 6:33 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  Jonathan, [thumbup][thumbup][thumbup][thumbup][thumbup]

  Ah, yes, just like the old days....

  Whatever happened?

  [smile]

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• Deb Kay posted at 5:40 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 1884

  I'm not getting into the battle on this case.
  The child has two families who love and want her.
  Too many children grow up feeling that nobody wants them.

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• sjt sjt posted at 4:29 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 37

  i am still upset by this and think of veronica often what was best for her at 4 months old was not what was best for her last year. there should have been a best interest hearing for veronica last year i will not vote for mary fallin for anything again. she had her father,the indian tribe, what does she have now. i believe she will come back. i do not like her adopted parents and never wil. indian children rights have always been violated. this is not over. i know her father tried to stop it and she will know what he did for her. the cherokee tribe said she was indian, the adopted parents should have left her here instead of taking her like they did. a terrible thing people won't forget. unless i miss my guess she will want the indians to bring her back.

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• Jonathan Schwarz posted at 4:07 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 2630

  Funny how Jeremiah Sampson, who actually put effort into being a father within the first weeks of his child's life, didn't need these reforms to gain custody.
  I'd love to live in the world that Linda Kats and other supporters of those ridiculous reforms that were part of the OK House Bill do. The world where every parent assumed the lifetime responsibility of creating a child, where no parent is abusive or has substance abuse issues, and where no family is dysfunctional. Then adoptions wouldn't be necessary, no governmental intervention would ever occur, and nobody would ever mourn their loss of cultural identity. Sadly, I live in the real world. The world where more "fathers" go out for a pack of smokes and never come back every day than the handful of "surprise" adoptions that have ever occurred. The world where some parents abuse and neglect their children, pimp them out for drug money, or have mental problems to the point that the children's lives are in danger. In the real world, somebody has to care for all of those children, and foster parents and adoptions are a better alternative then orphanages, and both are better alternatives then "ostriching" and living in a fantasy world.

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• Renee Keeton posted at 3:53 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  I have heard that there is a six-year period where the birth mother can back out on an adoption and if the birth mother has the ability (as in housing and food and such) can regain custody.

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• Renee Keeton posted at 3:50 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  The intention in it is obvious. An Indian Man suing to get custody of his Indian Child when a "white" couple who are "connected" wants her. Dusten Brown didn't stand a chance in the Supreme Court. In courts all over this country we are still not given the same concideration as many other people. The C's side is basicly we paid our "adoption" fees we have paid..... she isn't a toy or a car..... wow

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• Jonathan Schwarz posted at 3:50 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 2630

  Keely, glad to see you acknowledge that Dusten initially agreed to place Veronica and then changed his mind.

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• Renee Keeton posted at 3:46 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  The law suite is a bid by the adoptive parents to make sure that they will forever have a hold on Veronica. If she was leave them they will still have this settlement. However, if she does what they want her to do then they will allow her not to have to deal with it. It truely is sad when ANOTHER Indian child is subjected to this. We got ICWA to stop it and it is still going on.

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• Ron Hill posted at 12:49 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  brette, [thumbup]

  I think that's two [thumbup]s I have given you in just the past few days.

  Scary.....[smile]

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• Kathleen Fennell posted at 12:26 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 8

  Don't paint all foster care parents with such a broad brush. There are people who do this for the right reasons. I have personal friends whose foster children, now grown, are still considered a part of their family. These foster children are at family reunions, their children are treated as grandchildren. I personally couldn't be a foster parent. When it came time for the children to be reunited with their families, I don't think I could distance myself.

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• brette pruitenski posted at 12:00 pm on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 1362

  Dusten Brown was hardly an ideal poster boy for fathers' rights. He signed away his rights to Veronica until the tribe made an issue out of it. He was thousands in arears in support payments to another child until military garnishment forced him to pay. If the tribe was truly concerned about Veronica, they wouldn't have taken her from the only parents she ever knew. Other arrangements could have been made to aquaint her with her miniscule Indian heritage.

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• Robert Wilson posted at 10:19 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 2201

  Christian, child stealers.

  They love their little pet Indian.

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• Ron Hill posted at 9:53 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  A lawyer told me they couldn't change their mind for an unlimited period of time. And he was right. After a certain amount of time if you change your mind, you do nothing but cause pain to the child and her family.

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• Ron Hill posted at 9:49 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  Keni, [thumbup]

  (weird, huh?)

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• Cindy Keith posted at 9:34 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 9282

  A lawyer told me a mother could legally change her mind up until the adoption was finalized. And he was right. She changed her mind.

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• Linda Kats posted at 9:28 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 2

  Please know everyone is needed for the fight at the legislative level. It will take more than one or two people being a voice. Please feel free to contact Linda Kats but most importantly contact your legislators to ask them to insist on having the rights of the fathers and the children represented in legislation, to extend the period of time a mom can wait to sign the relinquishment or be able to retract the relinquishment and to allow the biological family who are fit and willing to set up and keep the child in the family. Matching unborn children with families gives no room for changing the decision after the baby is born. This is coercion at the lowest level. The people watching over the legislation are primarily those who interests lay in making adoptions happen, hence making a living at adoptions. The adoption industry now has the ear of one key legislator who has been working toward changes. They have been attempting to persuade him otherwise. Your voice is critical. Now is the time to speak up, write, and call.
  

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• Ken Mael posted at 8:25 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 513

  The case was legally and properly resolved.
  Move along.

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• John Elwell posted at 5:41 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 13567

  The removal of the little girl was nothing more than a court ordered kidnapping.

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• Kitty Ang posted at 5:05 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 989

  Jenn: I wish it could be as you say, someone with a real concern for her well being looking into it, unfortunately, the C's camp are still threatening people to have her sweet pictures removed and any other reminders. She was in school before, she's five years old, doesn't she HAVE to go to school? Is SC that backward in education? The media has been bought and paid for, noone is going to touch it and they know this.
  Sounds like the stress, then the reality of her loving her God-given family, has set in; unlike other adopters, they can't re-home her in the middle of the night.
  You give too much reason for real concern. alas.

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• Kitty Ang posted at 4:58 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 989

  Thank you for the story, it was unexpected considering TW's connectedness with the adoption industry and the foster no-care bureacracy.
  NO foster no-care guardinans, they are NOT foster-"parents"-adding the adjective does NOT make the people getting paid to take someone else's children in order to keep an out-of-control business going "parents." They get paid, they're no more than baby sitters or nannies. As has been highlighted by stories in the past few months, children sold to foster no-care families are too often abusive or murderous. Children's rights should demand guarantees that children will be put in clean, decent homes and every effort made aqt re-unification with the real/God-given family. People have discovered foster no-care as the avenue to pursue if they want to adopt. The state coffers would suffer otherwise. Anyone notice that noone from the foster no-care bureacracy ever answers criticism about re-unification with the God-given families?
  "Adoption should be about finding parents for children who need them, not finding children for couples who want them, Kats said" Best statement ever.
  Unfortunately, I believe the Capbiancos are evil enough they'd have Veronica insitutionalized before they ever admitted any of it was their fault. They're just that egoamanical. We will all pray for Veronica, her God-given family and people AND the Capobiancos, who are her custodians until she's an adult, that they don't do anything else to this beautiful little girl.
  The Fathers' Rights movement and the awareness for all God-given families has really come to the national attention over the un-Christian adoption industry and practices from this. That South Carolina could even have the audacity to say that the God-given father of a baby born in Oklahoma had no legal standing is a travesty of justice, and much more could only be said by a devil worshipper.
  One thing is certain - she has great blood and an awesome God-given real daddy and People.

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• Kitty Ang posted at 4:24 am on Sun, Sep 21, 2014.

  Posts: 989

  Jenn: don't forget the petticoat politics that got her case moved to the SCOTUS so fast - their attorny's husband had clerked for John Roberts, who bought his own children in Ireland and then there was a scandal about how he went through South America to circumvent Ireland's adoption laws....and anyone expected him to give an impartial judgment???

  Where did you hear about the drugging? I said early on Melanie, being a psychologist, would drug her into submission under some pretext or other. Yes, she probably has PTSD from what the Capobiancos have put her through.

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• Sylvia Whittaker-Butler posted at 11:22 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 2

  Thank you for this story on Veronica Brown. One day she will know the truth & see how wrong these C's were. She will come back to her real family in Ok. These C's are so wrong in what they've done,,,BUYING A CHILD!! Sickening!!!!

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• Samantha Franklin posted at 10:42 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 5

  Thank you so much for this article and keeping Veronica's story alive.
  She must depend on others to be her voice.

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• Ron Hill posted at 7:48 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  After what period of time, can a mother change her mind?

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• clare palmatier posted at 6:34 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 10

  Keep in mind that the Browns can't comment on Veronica without having to worry about how the Capobiancos will punish her or them for it. The Capobiancos hold all the cards now and can withhold contact at any time. What happened to this beautiful little girl and her family was a hideous perversion of what adoption is supposed to be. She is now being held and raised by people who are suing not only her father and The Cherokee Nation but Veronica herself while she is forced to live in their house. At four (five now) she couldn't have any assets so it's unclear whether the Capobiancos are suing for future earnings or the rights to her story. Unbelievable as it seems, Veronica won't be free to go home until she is grown. The only thing to do in the meantime is try to make sure it never happens to another child.

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• Susan Wray posted at 6:26 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  This case is completely about unethical adoptions and money. Everyone on the adoption side of this case is involved in and in support of unethical adoptions. They are against fathers rights. This isn't just about Veronica. However, we who are against unethical practices in adoption will never let this die. Veronica needs to be with her family. There is way too much politics and misreported information to even discuss this case. But if you could follow the actions of the bio mother, adoption agency, and money all would be revealed. It is too bad a child had to suffer.

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• Keely Denning posted at 5:40 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  So sad to see the twisting of the facts still being spread... But, if a woman can give birth, place a child for adoption, and later change her mind, and get her baby back, why can't a proven loving and fit father do the same?

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• Keely Denning posted at 5:37 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  Capobiancos' asked for he attention. They gave up all their rights to privacy when they went to the national media... Nope, they will not have privacy, Ronie will always know where her family is... She still asks to come home.

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• Keely Denning posted at 5:36 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 3

  Karla, First, Capobianco's are the ones who went on a media blitz in their task to remove this child from her father... I suggest you get some money and hire Jessica Munday for your PR ... you say you support the Capobianco's in the forced removal of Dusten Brown's daughter, which means you are against ICWA, yet you want to use ICWA to get custody of a child who you claim is nearly 1/4 (since your nephew was nearly 50%) but apparently she is not Chippewa because in order for ICWA to apply, she must be enrolled in a federally recognized tribe, so by your words this is "not a ICWA case" tells me the child is not a member of a federally recognized tribe, to which Veronica was and still is a member of the Cherokee Nation. Percentage wise, it does not matter, what matters is if a child is ENROLLED, since this child your family wants, is not enrolled, that would make Veronica more % of blood.. But more interesting is the fact that many of those who supported Brown and ICWA continue to work on other cases, I am a strong ICWA supporter, and can promise you, that there are very, very many cases going on. and we are winning many of those cases because of ICWA, however, I must inform you that we are not available for you, we call it KARMA... you go on supporting those Capobiancos. the rest of us will wait for Ronie to come home.. and she will,

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• Katherine Tate posted at 5:10 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 17

  It "resonates" because it was wrong then and it is no less wrong now. Veronica's very identity was stolen from her by a selfish couple who felt themselves entitled to her simply because they believed they "wanted her more" (statement from Melanie's court testimony). They promised on national television that everyone who loved her would still be in her family and then turned around and sued her father, the CNO, and even HER (baby girl is listed on the suit), and what contact there is, would seem to be far more limited than they alluded to on the national television shows they went on since the took her away from the only family she could possibly have remembered at that age (that's from basic child development and age-related milestones of memory). She was not a child who needed to be adopted. She was thriving in her father's loving care. The Capobiancos conspired with the child's mother from the outset (again, this is in Melanie's court testimony) to deprive Veronica of her rightful relationship and rather than showing that they loved her and working out a solution with her father when she was 4 months of age, they fought him. If an adoptive parent or parents finds themselves in a court battle against a fit family for possession of a child, that child DOES NOT NEED ADOPTION. But the Capobiancos have shown time and again how selfish and entitled they are, so their fight for a child because they WANTED HER MORE was not at all surprising. One day that little girl will grow up, and she WILL find out the truth. Anyone who believes she won't care should research the scores of teen and adult adoptees tracking down their real families. It matters. And it will matter to that little girl.

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• Bounty Hunter posted at 4:58 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 3285

  I love how the TW states that "the child's fate was sealed". Exactly what was the intention of that comment?

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• Karla Hartman posted at 4:42 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 174

  I was and still am behind the Capobiancos in this case. In another state besides Oklahoma this case wouldn't have even made headlines. Right now my niece is fighting for custody of my nephew's daughter. He passed away before she was born and the child's mother lost custody of the girl and the girl was placed into foster care. My nephew was about 50% Chippewa so his daughter is half of that. My niece was told that the ICWA didn't apply at all. Now, tens of thousands of dollars later, the case is still in the courts because the foster parents want to adopt her as well. My niece has been in her life since she was born, as well as most members of my family. No one's coming to her defense like the Cherokees did for those few drops of blood running through Veronica's veins.

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• Deb Kay posted at 4:06 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 1884

  I wish the media would just leave this be, so all of the parties involved can move on with their lives and enjoy some privacy.

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• Jerry Pogue posted at 3:44 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 167

  It "resonates" only when you reopen the old wounds. Leave the poor little child in peace.

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• Ron Hill posted at 3:13 pm on Sat, Sep 20, 2014.

  Posts: 28576

  "Adoption should be about finding parents for children who need them, not finding children for couples who want them, Kats said."

  So true.

  The problem is, once you indicate that you do not want your child, (as Brown did in many ways, abandoning the child) you cannot change your mind and take them away from a family who now has the child for two years.

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