PB, (3/8/2008 7:06:00 AM)

Representative Boren's list is historically accurate and he should represent all of the people of his Second District, including the many Native Americans. It is good for later generations to recognize wrongful policies of the past and apologize.

Reparations are another issue. Cash payments made by later generations to the descendents of those who were wronged is of questionable value. The issue of reparations is divisive and creates resentment by many of the majority who "pay for the sins of their fathers." African Americans and the descendents of more recent immigrants are especially resentful for being told to pay for the mistakes of Americans of earlier and European origins.

There is a better way to show that "we" mean it when we say that we are sorry, and I believe that we are imperfectly following that better way. We should work to insure that all treaty commitments that remain meaningful are adhered to by our government. We currently recognize more than 500 tribes and many of those tribes have organized tribal governments that function with a limited number of sovereign rights known as "the bundle of sticks." Since the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934, we have encouraged the retention of tribal culture and tribal ownership of remaining lands. (An interruption occurred with the Termination Policy of 1953-- another recent mistake and reason to apologize). Recognizing and protecting the rights of Native Americans to pursue their "American Dreams" as citizens of the US, their state, and their tribe, is the best way to mean it when we say that we are sorry.

Alden, Tulsa (3/8/2008 7:24:07 AM)

Mike Jones. Is the editorial you again? Rep. Boren could show some real Indian bravery by proposing that the Bureau of Indian Affairs be eliminated, and for all of the politically correct twits to stop calling Indians 'Native Americans'. They are Americans, period. Both of these things continue to bestow on Indians the concept of second class citizens, many of whom are my best firends.

PB, (3/8/2008 7:59:16 AM)

"Twits" Come on Alden, why resort to name calling. You are better than that. BTW, your "Is the editorial you again?" , reminds me of a Bushism-- "Is our children learning?" No offense intended, just having a little fun. (I make plenty of those errors, too). Read the news story in today's paper. Not all Native American or "Indian" people agree with your friends. Sorry for another BTW-- The use of Indian is really confusing. Most of the Native-Americans that I know have never been to New Dehli, Calcutta, or Bombay, etc. Why perpetuate an error that is now more than 500 years old? Is it better to be politically correct or geographically incorrect? Peace. : )

Alden, Tulsa (3/8/2008 8:34:20 AM)

PB, good to have you join the comments on this. You can call them Native Americans. I can call the politically correct bunch twits. Very few African-Americans have ever been to Africa. They are Americans, period. Re-read my question to Mike Jones, the World's leading twit, but add ', expressing your guilt concerning Indian mistreatment?'. My comments still hold, eliminate the BIA and call all of us Americans. The BIA budget is four billion dollars. There are about 1.8 Indians. Go figure. Even if directed to Indians only, this would mean much wampum for productive uses, versus salaries for eight thousand bureaucrats.

PB, (3/8/2008 12:45:31 PM)

Alden, of course you can name-call if you wish. My point was that it demeans you and does not prove your case.

Your example of African Americans not having been to Africa is not the same as my point about Native Americans not being connected to India except for Columbus's mistake. Think about it. Africans are the ancestors of African Americans. Indians are not likely ancestors of Native Americans. Native Americans more likely came from Siberia and the area near Siberia in Northeastern Asia. India is in South Asia.

You have a valid point about the BIA. It may be the best idea to reach a decision concerning the value of treaty and trust claims and have the annual payments go directly to the tribal governments from the US Treasury. Perhaps Representative Boren will propose it.

Be aware that when you say that we should all just be Americans and that many of your best friends are Indians, many Native Americans and other people from racial minority groups will roll their eyes and laugh. That is one of the oldest lines used by racists trying to deny that they are racist. : )

Alden, Tulsa (3/8/2008 3:08:55 PM)

PB
You make my point. If all of us were just called Americans you wouldn't need to rely on the old, tired politically correct line that I am a rascist. Please refer to me hereafter as Alden the Norwegian.
Glad you agree with me about the BIA. It is a disgrace.

PB, (3/8/2008 4:46:58 PM)

Alden, I DID NOT say that you are a racist. Reread my statement. I just stated what I have observed on many occasions when someone says what you wrote. Also go back to your original point. I do not have to refer to you in any specific way. Since I prefer to use Alden, I think I will continue to use that name. I am glad that we have no misunderstanding on the BIA. : )

Me, tulsa (3/8/2008 10:32:11 PM)

PB - I think Alden the Norwegian made a good point in his original post. It would be nice to know which of the World Editorial Staff penned a particular editorial.

Richard Garyson, Saint Paul (3/9/2008 12:16:46 AM)

I have no idea who Dan Boren is, but the “D” following his name explains a great deal of his silly ideas.

Most probable cause is an acute case of white-guilt or deficiency of attention (NOTICE ME!!!!).

He definitely has a case of full-blown, megalomaniacal egoitis to think that he has the authority to apologize on behalf of every white person that ever lived.

I doubt he plans on picking his own pockets to cover for reparations; but he doesn’t need to pick his, he’ll pick yours.

The editorial called the following logic flawed: "We didn't do those things. Why apologize?"

Unfortunately, the writer failed to provide a convincing explanation as to how the above reasoning is flawed.

The fact is that all parties to the atrocities of the past be they whites or Indians, victims or victimizers (and Indians were just as much victimizers as were whites), are all dead.

There is no one to who owes an apology, nor is there anyone to whom one is due in regards to this matter of history.

For those of you who subscribe to the "whites bad, Indians good" doctrine, I would recommend reading Thomas Sowell's "Conquests and Cultures." It is shocking to learn how brutal the Indians were towards other rival tribes and to helpless white settlers.

Most Indians died of European diseases to which they had no partial-immunity: a blameless tragedy.

Many Indians who were forced westward by white settlers were slaughtered by plains Indians. Should there be inter-tribal apologies as well?

Many Indians fought on behalf of European powers against other Indians fighting on behalf of different Europeans.

Many Indians fought other Indians over who would get primary contact with European traders. Capitalist greed in idyllic Eden?

Many Indians died needlessly and mercilessly at the hands of whites, but many got what they deserved at the hands of whites. The 38 executed Dakota in 1862 come to mind.

Ultimately, many Indian cultures and peoples were tragically ended and it may seem like a great injustice to us today, but there is nothing that can be done to change the past; it is irrevocable.

I love my country and I enjoy my life. I would not exist today - and neither would any of you - were it not for countless of major and minor events and occurrences taking place over the course of centuries. The biggest being Columbus' fateful Landing on Hispaniola back in 1492.

A lot of ugly things happened afterwards, but am I sorry he landed there?

No, and anyone who is grateful for their life and liberty should be happy he did.

No apology necessary!

PB, (3/9/2008 7:45:17 AM)

Me-- I was referring to Alden's original point on the issue that he can call people "twits" if they use the term Native American. I was just having a little fun with his inconsistency in demanding to be called Alden the Nowegian. (Alden, I undestood you to be joking on that point as well).

Richard Garyson-- You have a right to your opinion, but it does not make a lot of sense. This issue is not about "white guilt." That is just a convenient term to use as a way of avoiding a discussion on the issue of equity. I bet that if you discovered that you were the rightful heir of a fortune that had gone to someone else, you would want the money and other property of your inheritence. Today's generation of Native Americans are heirs to the treaty rights that their ancestors entered into with the government of the United States. They had their rights stripped from them by a host of decisions made by the United States government. My point is that the US government should apologize for breaking its word with them, and the remaining treaty obligations that can be fulfilled, must be fulfilled by our government.

Richard Garyson, sa (3/9/2008 3:48:09 PM)

#10, what do you mean by equity? And what should be done to achieve it? Explain what that will cost those encumbered with the obligation of creating equity?

Like the editorialist, you dismiss valid points and questions as "diversions," but then you yourself divert from explaining to us unenlightened types why we are wrong.

This is either due to the fact that our points are valid, impossible to refute or you are just not intelligent enough to do it yourself. I am going to say that in your case and the editorialists' both reasons apply.

On page 233of Thomas Sowell's "The Vision of the Anointed," he raises a question that is applicable to this topic: Is the law to attempt intertemporal cosmic justice or simply apply the same rules to all in the only temporal realm in which it has any jurisdiction?

And to answer your " bet that if you discovered that you were the rightful heir of a fortune that had gone to someone else, you would want the money and other property of your inheritance" claim, please watch the "Down and Out of Duckburg" episode of Duck Tales for a fictional - but potential reality if the anointed have their way - application of this scenario.

PB, (3/9/2008 5:10:12 PM)

Duck Tales??? lol. Don't be so cryptic, Cartoon Man. Come out and say whether or not you would want your inheritence. Playing pseudo-intellectual is a non-starter.

I will address the point of equity for you. Tribes agreed to sign away vast expanses of valuable land in many treaties. The US government in the Cherokee Tobacco case of 1870 and the following year in the Indian Appropriations Bill, stopped pretending to honor treaty commitments altogether. You spoke late in your original post of how thankful everyone (including Native Americans should be for their life and liberty. Your unwillingness to make good on the treaty provisions that are due all tribal members in perpetuity makes a mockery of the "blessings of liberty" that you apparently know so little about.

You also apparently missed many of my other points. I suppose that they were not stated in a sufficiently high intellectual way and you were unable to stoop low enough to understand the points. I said that reparations were counterproductive. You never acknowledged that point.

I also said that we were imperfectly following a policy of equity. Tribes are recognized again. Rights are restored. There are issues about mismanaged trust funds that need to be addressed, but I am not calling for ships to be loaded and all European-descended people to leave our homes. I call for simple justice.

All that is left to discuss is the apology. I am not telling you to apologize. I am not apologizing. The US government is apologizing because it was the US government that violated the treaty rights and broke its word. Forgive me, but your reluctance to allow our government to apologize for wrongful actions make me suspect that you really consider this to be about race. I hope that I am wrong, but your stance seems to be typical of the Euro-centrist belief that this is a white-man's nation and all non-whites who live here are just darn lucky that they get to live here too. Reread your Columbus reference and see why I suspect that you are a racist and maybe that you do not realize it.

David, Tulsa (3/10/2008 8:33:41 AM)

Why is Boren apologizing? Did he do these things? If so, we should get him out of office.

There's nothing dumber than apologizing because of the acts of others. What does that accomplish?

If Bob kills me and Ted apologized for it, does that make me feel better? No. If Bob apologizes, ok. But Ted apologizing does nothing.

PB, (3/10/2008 10:12:52 AM)

This is getting to be ridiculous. Don't you people read? Representative Boren IS NOT APOLOGIZING! He is proposing that the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT APOLOGIZE! David, the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT IS BOB! I am Ted. You are Ted. The person identified as Me(ost #8) is Ted. Richard Garyson is Ted. None of us are apologizing and reparations are not being made because, as we all agree, it would not be fair to make us pay for the sins of earlier US citizens and their government. Of those last two entities, only the US Government is still around. Therefore, it should make absolutely certain that it carries out its treaty responsibilities to the Native American tribes, whenever it is practical to do so. The US government is currently making an effort to do so. That effort should continue and improve. A major issue is recent mismanagement of tribal trusts. Do you people understand these points, yet?

hrw, tulsa (3/10/2008 11:37:26 AM)

Let the apology come forth. That is all it is. No monetary reparation. The US Government is guilty of allowing the mistreatment of American Indians. Don't let your underwear get in a wad over this, all you anti-American Indian people. It's a blanket apology from the US for Christ sake. Get over it. I appreciate the gesture.

PB, (3/10/2008 12:14:24 PM)

hrw, thank you for joining the discussion. Maybe these guys needed to hear the point from an actual Native American or as you prefer, American Indian.