Democrat, Tulsa County (7/18/2009 10:53:58 AM)

righton:

Are you speaking from a lot of personal experience?

The problems facing TPS are the same as the problems facing other urban school districts in this nation. The standards maintained by the public served by the public schools were lowered and then the achievement levels of the schools fell off.

abrcr99, Tulsa (7/18/2009 11:03:05 AM)

Actually that's not at all what took Edison High School and others from being very good to even elite schools and then turning them into a joke (however they are finally starting to get a little better, but still nowhere near where they were). Thanks for playin though democrat.

Royce, Tulsa (7/18/2009 11:19:33 AM)

"Once acknowledged as the best school district in the state, TPS has had its challenges in recent years. In some areas it has fallen behind. In some of those areas it has fallen behind to an embarrassing degree."

Yes, there was a time when Tulsa's schools were world class. Indeed I noticed when I was student at OSU how well prepared for college work the students from Tulsa were, and that's the principle reason that I decided to work and live in Tulsa.

That excellence in education began to decline with the retirement of Dr. Mason (who incidentally held a legitimate PhD, not one of those flaky EdD's which have no scholarly merit what so ever).

No, there will be no great things happening in our public schools until our school board comes to understand TPS's shortcomings and why they exist.

Matt Livingood, Tulsa (7/18/2009 11:44:31 AM)

Royce, You said, "there will be no great things happening in our public schools until our school board comes to understand TPS's shortcomings and why they exist."

Here's one Board member working hard to "understand TPS's shortcomings and why they exist." I presume from your comment that you understand. So, if you will, please share your understandings. I do want to know what you see and know that you think I may not get.

Thanks for being a part of the conversation.

Regards, Matt Livingood, Member
Tulsa Public Schools Board of Education

Democrat, Tulsa County (7/18/2009 11:59:43 AM)

abrcr99: Let's hear what else besides the changes in the public being served caused the decline in TPS achievement.

At one time, TPS had nearly 90,000 students and all socio-economic classes were well-represented. Then came "white-flight" of the affluent population to the suburbs. Now, TPS has fewer than 40,000 students and the socio-economic make-up is far different than it was during the district's glory days.

You should say something before you go into your victory dance and thank me for playing.

moogle, Tulsa (7/18/2009 12:28:42 PM)

Increased attention to early childhood is a needed response to increasing numbers of students coming from biological parents who provide no responsible training and leadership for the child -- a consequence of society's casual attitude toward baby making.

However, a substantial improvement in TPS will require city government to stop obsessing over downtown and direct its attention to the rest of Tulsa in order to reverse flight to the burbs. For example, dealing with the problem of crime infested apartment complexes. And, although it will raise the hackles of the politically correct, getting section 8 trolls to go somewhere else.

Mar, Tulsa (7/18/2009 12:31:00 PM)

I agree with Democrat. My two oldest sons attended Tulsa Public Schools in the 1970s and 1980s before we moved out of state in 1990, my youngest son was 4 at the time so he never attended TPS. The schools back then were very good, I feel my sons had a very good education. But back then they didn't have to have security guards in schools, kids weren't sneaking guns in school, etc.

The past 10 years is a different story. I have watched the decline of the school district even though more and more money is thrown at it.

Everything begins at home and when children come from a poor parented home environment, it makes it difficult for the children in school to learn and to know how to behave properly and also difficult for the teachers to do their jobs.

Start from the top down, there has to be a lot of waste and duplication in the school system. Become a lean and mean school machine. Hold students and their parents accountable for their actions. The students are are wanting to learn should not be disrupted by ill behaved students.

Go back to the basics on education, teach the basics of reading, writing, spelling and math. Require good behavior in the classroom, require respect from the students to their teachers and other authority. Perhaps have stricter rules, let the students understand that education is a serious endeavor. Though make learning fun also.

FS, Broken Arrow (7/18/2009 1:23:12 PM)

If each of the 200+ school districts in Oklahoma didn't have their own high-dollar superintendent much more money would be available for education instead of supporting what is basically a political appointee.

Divide the state into quarters and have one super for each. Helluva savings.

FS, Broken Arrow (7/18/2009 1:25:58 PM)

righton, (7/18/2009 7:27:13 AM)
the more you lower your standards, the easier it is to achieve them.
__________________________

No kidding - if we don't educate to keep the supply of "bubbas" high, how will Oklahoma attract the low-wage jobs we seem to be getting?

Royce, Tulsa (7/18/2009 1:37:29 PM)

Matt Livingood writes:
Royce, You said, "there will be no great things happening in our public schools until our school board comes to understand TPS's shortcomings and why they exist.

Here's one Board member working hard to "understand TPS's shortcomings and why they exist." I presume from your comment that you understand. So, if you will, please share your understandings. I do want to know what you see and know that you think I may not get."

First Mr. Livingood, our public education system is totally smitten with those asinine theories belched out by John Dewey. Particularly the expermentation angles. It was Thomas Edison who told us that experiments usually don't work, and when the experiments fail in education an entire generation of students are short changed.

A classic example of Dewey's experiments was the "new Math" which is incredibly ludicrous. There is nothing new about mathematics; we've been teaching it since antiquity and Euclid. It was Dewey's disciples who decided that mathematics should be a subjective, memory type course like History or Civics rather than an analytical thinking type course. We began with this "new Math" in the mid 1960's, and look where we are today. Even the most vociferous advocates of the new Math admits it failed.

What did they do? They replaced it with the new new Math, which is even more ludicrous that the new Math.

The educationists assert they want and need "parental involvement". When my kids were in school the administration and faculty welcomed parents until those parents started asking tough questions at which time they were treated like typhoid carriers.

The Tulsa School Board should discontinue recognizing the NEA as a union. Any teacher who wanted to strike let him or her do so. Simply replace that person with an individual who probably lacks the "certification" credentials of a teacher, but so what.

I had always held teachers in high esteem, approaching awe until I went to college and learned that the education majors were the dumbest kids on campus. Ever hear of Dexter Manley, football star at OSU and a first round draft pick by the Washington Redskins? Dexter was an education major and, while I don't think he graduated, he did manage to stay academically eligible to compete in football. Dexter couldn't read.

I could go on and on, but simply check the academic requirements for a Teacher's Certificate in Oklahoma. They're child's play, utterly devoid of scholarly merit.

bboys, (7/18/2009 5:15:44 PM)

Royce- I really would be curious to know what has so turned you against education or is it just public schools, or maybe even it is just TPS??? I am a career educator...having spent the past 25 years in the classroom(Bixby, Union, Locust Grove, Metro Christian and this past year at Nimitz Middle School....I am offended by your comments! How do you feel you have the right to classify all education majors as the dumbest kids on campus? You sir need to step back and think about the statements you are posting..they tend to make you seem "dumb" or maybe just ignorant as to what really goes on in a classroom or in a school district!
As far as your TPS comments go.. having worked at Nimitz this past year...I can honestly say that some of the best teachers I have worked with are in that school. Yes the district has challenges, but Dr. Ballard is moving in the right direction and I think everyone will be able to see in the near future just how hard everyone is working to make TPS one of the best in the State!!!
Please think about how HATEFUL and HURTFUL your words before you post....God Bless!!!

Democrat, Tulsa County (7/18/2009 6:06:50 PM)

bboys:

Don't take anything that Royce writes to heart. He is an old cranky regular on this site and his comments are always venomous. He appears to be a very unhappy man.

eas, (7/18/2009 6:29:00 PM)

While I agree that TPS has a lot of big issues to address, I also feel that there are many things going right in the district. I especially feel much more hopeful about the future under Dr. Ballard's direction. I think that he has calmed things down enough so that he now has the opportunity to lead us to a better situation within our schools. I'm not a teacher nor do I work for TPS, but have had children in TPS since 1995.
Some of the things I'd like to see addressed:
-- Schools going back to being more of a community school, where the neighborhood revolves around the school. I do know that we have some in TPS (Kendall-Whittier comes to mind) but I think that more neighborhood identification with their schools helps the schools become stronger.
--Better communication from TPS about the basic goals of the school system. And then follow through with a plan that reflects that. Warm & fuzzy slogans aren't as good as specifics.
I know that this is a School Board/Superintendent thing and I am hopeful that with this current Superintendent there will be better communication.
-- Since we have such a high rate of new teachers, there needs to be a better mentoring process set up for them. We saw this over and over at our elementary school and it got really old to have a new teacher (as in freshly out of college) every year. Experience is a good thing, but if you don't have that, a good mentor to get you there is a good second best.

Some things going right in this district:
--Over the years, we have had some absolutely stellar teachers - most of whom were highly experienced. (Yes, we have had some teachers who maybe should rethink their profession, but that happens in every profession).
-- The facilities have been upgraded greatly since we began at TPS, and I hope that this continues. Those bond issues have made a difference.
-- I'm very excited about the Teach for America program - I realize that they are new teachers, but they should arrive with some practical classroom strategies as well as assigned mentors. I also think that the Gates Foundation grant would be fantastic to receive, but even if we don't get it, we'll have gotten the expert's evaluations and can use that as another resource.

Question for Mr. Livingood: What was the average daily enrollment of TPS last year?

Matt Livingood, Tulsa (7/18/2009 8:11:37 PM)

eas . . . "What was the average daily enrollment of TPS last year?"

41,195 - per data submitted to Oklahome State Department of Education.

Regards, Matt Livingood

Matt Livingood, Tulsa (7/18/2009 8:30:14 PM)

Royce,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. You have provided quite a bit to think about.

I would agree with the caution against characterizing an entire discipline by your observations of a few. I have observed outstanding, bright and capable students as well as poorly achieving students in many disciplines.

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Regards, Matt Livingood

J C OK, Tulsa County (7/18/2009 9:31:35 PM)

Tulsa Public Schools educated my two children. One son has four certifications and is teaching Special Ed in TPS. I taught elementary and later became a principal. We have three nephews, one nieces, a cousin, and sister who have taught in the Tulsa system. We have two nephews who are with Union Schools.
I think Dr. Ballard is a wonderful asset and look forward to great accomplishments in Tulsa Public Schools.
Mr. Livingood, we appreciate your comments and thank you for serving our school.

Royce, Tulsa (7/18/2009 9:58:09 PM)

bboys writes: "How do you feel you have the right to classify all education majors as the dumbest kids on campus? You sir need to step back and think about the statements you are posting..they tend to make you seem "dumb" or maybe just ignorant as to what really goes on in a classroom or in a school district!"

As a "career educator" I can readily understand why you would consider me "dumb". On the other hand I hold an MS in Chemical Engineering, which I'm quite confident is a more demanding academic experience than anything you ever experienced.

I did not intend to convey the idea that "How do you feel you have the right to classify all education majors as the dumbest kids on campus?"

I did intend to convey the message that the dumbest kids on campus are found among education majors, or perhaps you don't believe me that Dexter Manley spent 4 years as an education major at OSU, yet at the end of Dexter's college experience he couldn't read. Indeed, when I was a student at OSU we called the athletic dorm "The Zoo".

Surely you won't claim that there is any scholarly merit in the teacher certification curriculum. Those courses were designed for 2 purposes: (1) to keep the football players eligible for NCAA competition, and (2) to provide jobs for the education faculty.

You do admit "Yes the district has challenges". Any "challenges" which the district may have are self inflicted, which means they will never be resolved.

I stated at the outset that Dr. Charles Mason provided Tulsans with world class schools, and those schools have slipped in excellence to the extent that some of them have been chastised (not closed, only chastised)by the state Department of Education. I would love to see those days of excellence returned, and I would suggest that Tulsans deserve that.

As a "career educator" I'm sure you oppose school vouchers as well as home schooling. Do you insist on requiring the student to attend the school served by the area in which that student lives, however deplorable that school may be?

As far as "moving in the right direction" is concerned, don't you think that TPS should be in the right place rather than moving in that direction? There was a time under Dr. Mason when we were there but the John Dewey/NEA crowd derailed us.

psychedelikrelik, Tulsa (7/18/2009 11:39:05 PM)

I have only good things to say about TPS. My daughter is a product of Mayo, Thoreau and Edison, and a junior in college now with a 3.2 GPA.

docpresley, Tulsa (7/19/2009 2:18:19 AM)

I don't mean to rain on the parade but
I have been a resident of Tulsa for over 40 years.

During that time the Tulsa World has usually been in favor of more money for public edition while firmly opposing vouchers.

Yet when I check addresses of the editors and owners they were either in affluent districts, the equivalent of what Jenks is today, or sending their children to private schools.

We lived in a poorer inner city district of the Tulsa Public schools, our only way to get our children in a good school was to move into a suburban school district and then use it with a mixture of home schooling.

Its to bad that those who have the means to live in affluent districts or have their kids attend private schools editorialize and vote to sentence others people's children to schools they would never dream of letting their own children attend.

How many Washington DC political leaders have their children in public schools, not many if any. Yet many vote to keep inner city and poor children trapped in public schools.

It would be nice to see some real innovative approaches used to enhance education for those who can't afford to move to more affluent school districts or use private schools.

I guess the editors/owners of the World and many Washington DC political leaders have something in common.

Too bad.

Democrat, Tulsa County (7/19/2009 6:08:15 AM)

eas, moogle, mars, psychedelikrelik, and J C have provided useful comments on this subject. It was and remains possible for students to receive a quality education from TPS. It has nothing to do with John Dewey and the "new math." Turning out successful students had little to do with Dr. Mason back in the 1960s, nor will the current Superintendent and school board members be able to do more than support the efforts of teachers in the classroom to educate those willing to be educated. The determining factors in the success of individual students and in increasing the achievement of the many students of TPS are found in the homes of the individual students. Having two parents helps. Having two parents or even one parent with the good sense to teach their young to be respectful of others and that it is important to eat right and get enough sleep and that school work comes before outside activities-- those factors are far more important than all of the "experiments" and other efforts made by teachers, administrators, school board members and politicians on the state, local, and national levels.

Matt Livingood, Tulsa (7/19/2009 10:33:39 AM)

One final comment (from me, at least) on this thread.

You may have noticed the statement on TPS buses -- "The District of Choice." Every school in the District is open to any student in the District on a space available basis. No child or family is "stuck" going to any school they don't want or feel does not meet their educational needs.

Our challenge is to provide alternatives that provide quality learning experiences to over 41,000 unique students each day. Like snowflakes, no two of them are ever alike. We're continuously working to improve what we do . . . in no small part because of the participation of good people such as those who care enough to participate in this forum. I welcome all your comments.

Thanks, Matt Livingood

docpresley, Tulsa (7/19/2009 9:51:41 PM)

Maybe now, but when we tried, a school in a more desirable district had to have the room, which often times they didn't.

But the real choice will come when k-12 is handled more like college, there we send federal funds to private institutions and never think twice, so why not lower grades as well.

Royce, Tulsa (7/21/2009 5:50:45 PM)

I see that Congress is readying a G. I. Bill for the veterans who served in the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts.

Everyone agrees that the orginal G. I. Bill, which paid all tuition, fees, books, and supplies for any veteran to attend any university where he was admitted, be it a tax supported State university such as OSU and OU, or private university such as TU (or for that matter Harvard or Princeton) or a religious school such as ORU, or SMU, or TCU, or even Notre Dame, made that generation the best educated generation in history.

In short, the GI bill was one really generous voucher, and its educational value to this nation was absolutely stunning.