a disciple, Glenpool (6/23/2009 5:45:44 AM)

Ironically, displaying the entire Constitution could be ruled unconstitutional since it was ratified on "the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty-seven" (Article VII). Even the Constitution mentions the Lord. I love irony:)

zzx375, BA (6/23/2009 6:43:01 AM)

"...from some ancient book of tribal fairy tales..."

This is good ridicule. Jim, what does "ancient" have to do with anything? Would "modern" be better?

okieboy1, tulsa (6/23/2009 7:18:29 AM)

Just to take a couple of cliff notes from both and display them side by side in public.

1)Thou shalt honor thy Father and thy Mother
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech

2)Thou shalt not kill
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Right to keep and bear arms.

3)You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
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nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I don't think one can do without the other to some degree. Imagine a child in public telling thier mother, "yo, bi-atch get me some more to eat". Free speech isn't something that has minimum age limit so why isn't is plausible to think it can't or doesn't happen. Look around and one can see that it does. Of course, we could always point to the fact that we shouldn't kill but we have right to carry and own guns so it is very possible that a killing will occur. Which one is right and which one is wrong? The bill of rights gives me the right to carry a weapon that is manufactured to kill, not maim.
And then we only need to see in example three that our government breaks both the "fairy tale" rule of not coveting property and not taking private property without fair compensation.

Yeah, the author of this letter is correct, maybe we should hang up the Bill of Rights in our schools. I know I would feel better knowing that we have mouthy, gun-toting, thieves graduating in the future. Oh, wait....we already do.

Graychin, Eucha (6/23/2009 7:39:29 AM)

ZZ is right. The word "ancient" is unnecessary.

"...from some book of tribal fairy tales..." would have been clear enough.

It takes a vivid imagination and extreme chutzpa to assert that the Ten Commandments have nothing to do with religion. Or that a monument to the Ten Commandments has a purpose other than advancing certain religious beliefs.

"I am the Lord your God...."

Eagle 4, Tulsa (6/23/2009 8:23:10 AM)

The chutzpah of those promoting the US as a Christian Nation is incredible. Our history of enslavement, genocide and rampant greed and immorality is indisputably evident to unbiased students of history.

American "Christians" should be asking themselves for a Great Awakening of the true Christian principles of Love and Tolerance instead of asking for billboards to advertise their present projected brands of hypocrisy.

Good letter, Gene. We must resist the encroachment of ecclesiastics attempting to be the only determinants of American philosophies - and that applies to ALL religions.

wardog, Miami (6/23/2009 8:50:36 AM)

Amen to displaying the Constitution, I bet most don't haven't even read it. Most kids won't know a thing about it. I believe it should be displayed in many places. It is our history and our future. People keep pushing the bible, over and over. Trust me we know the bible. But the Constitution 'is' this Great Nation. We should be proud of what it says (and stop changing it for wrong purposes). Let all know what millions died for and live for..freedom!

Hijinx, (6/23/2009 8:58:06 AM)

Thanks Gene for your letter.

And yes it is a ridiculous assertion from ridiculously myopic lawmakers who use this as a self promotion tool and with little regard to the commandments themselves.

TonyQ, Tulsa (6/23/2009 9:06:45 AM)

Lots of kids learn about the constitution for maybe a couple weeks in history and civics classes. They're subjected to the "truths" of their religion at least once weekly by authority figures who convince them to believe in unicorns and leprechauns lest they burn for eternity. The hardline Christians don't care about the constitution. Secular, enlightened democracy is at best secondary to the kingdom of god.

Let's hope that the current trend continues: the more radical Christians become the more secular the rest of the country goes.

Bud Green, No (6/23/2009 9:13:53 AM)

Good letter Gene Garman.

The U.S. Constitution applies to all U.S. Citizens. The 10 Commandments are a religious edict of which no original copy is available.

"No other gods before me", "honor the sabbath", "no graven images", "do not take name of your lord in vain" are purely religious in nature.
The rest are good rules that were also found in nearly all civilizations.

CowboyBobDog, A long way away (6/23/2009 9:32:37 AM)

"...unicorns and leprechauns lest they burn for eternity."

Well so much for enlightened debate.

(Bobdog gags.)

iflyfast, Tulsa (6/23/2009 9:32:43 AM)

First, I would like to pose a question to those that are calling the Bible a book of fairy tales, etc. If you consider the Bible a bunch of tribal fairy tales, what do you consider the Koran, or other religious books? (please note...this is not to begin an argument, but I am honestly curious about what you "guys" have to say on other religious books)

Second, I agree that the 10 Commandments don't need to be displayed on government property. Not because of the fictional "separation of church and state" that people like to think is in the Constitution, but because if you do allow the 10 Commandments, then, by the words of the First Amendment, you then have to allow every other religion to put their version in the same place. Can you imagine how cluttered those places would be?
Now, I am totally for having, not only the ENTIRE Constitution, but also the Declaration of Independence posted. Those two documents are two of the main pieces of the basis of our country and our laws. It is 100% appropriate to put these at our government buildings.

TonyQ, Tulsa (6/23/2009 9:40:57 AM)

iflyfast,

Of course the Koran and other religious books are equally fictional. If we focus on the Bible it's only because we are surrounded by meddling Christians attempting to shove it down everyone's throats.

Not that there's anything wrong with fiction. A lot of truth can be found in it. The Bible and the Koran stand on their own as classic works of literature. They should be appreciated as such.

But to declare a single book written centuries ago by people whose understanding of the universe was closer to Stone Age level than what we know now about it is just silly.

Graychin, Eucha (6/23/2009 9:53:55 AM)

"A fairy tale is a fictional story that may feature folkloric characters such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, giants, and talking animals, and usually enchantments, often involving a far-fetched sequence of events."

Speaking only for myself, I consider the scriptures of all religions to contain equal measures of tribal "fairy tales." That does not imply that the various scriptures don't contain any truth or wisdom at all - they do!

The problems begin when we start believing fairy tales as "gospel truth," not as stories told for a deeper moral purpose.

Was the story of the Good Samaritan true? Did it really happen? What about the laborers in the vineyard? The prodigal son? Does it MATTER if those stories really happened? Of course not!

Does it really matter if God made Eve from Adam's rib? Or if there was really a talking serpent in Eden? Or if Eden existed?

CowboyBobDog, A long way away (6/23/2009 10:35:03 AM)

Good points for thoughts, Chin.

(Bobdog ponders.)

Graychin, Eucha (6/23/2009 12:09:32 PM)

Jim Purdy - My point was that none of those things should matter to people who claim to believe in the truth of the Bible. I should have made that clearer.

You say there never has been a god? I'm still not satisfied with the scientific creation stories. Neither are scientists - they keep digging deeper, finding new facts. Will they ever be able to dig to the bottom using scientific tools? Who knows? Will they find God there?

No one can prove the existence of God. She camouflages herself too well as natural phenomena. No one can prove the non-existence of God either. And no one can prove the non-existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If we could only show some of God's more militant warriors that stories like talking serpents, creation of humans out of a rib (or dust or whatever), Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel etc. are fairy tales (as defined above) and not important to their basic faith in God, we wouldn't have to put up with nearly so much nonsense from them. We might even be able to teach evolution in public schools!

RLG3RD, Broken Arrow (6/23/2009 12:40:08 PM)

Why Display either one of them, We haven't paid any attention to either one.

52favoriteteacher, Washburn--used to be Broken Arrow (6/23/2009 2:50:41 PM)

disciple

I Love It

There is no escape from an awesome and Holy God.

America is a nation in which citizens of all religions and of none are welcome to participate freely and fully in all of America’s social and political functions. The Founding Fathers and the first Congress got the constitutional principle right from the beginning of our country.

They almost did

Bison3, Tulsa (6/23/2009 3:01:01 PM)

I have always felt that this issue comes down to power in government. Deep down, I think that the ones that would erect these monuments don't really care about what they say so much as what it will get them. It will get them that "next step". Either prayer or teaching creationism instead of evolution in public schools. After that, well who knows but seeing Iran in the news over the past several days, it only re-enforces my belief that the slope that this monument will put us on is very slippery indeed!! Ya, we may not end up with Mullas but I'm sure that Mr. Fritze would like to carve out a nice cushy position in some sort of morality council or something!! In posts on this topic I have used the analogy that mixing government and religion is like trying to mix ice cream and motor oil. They both have a purpose but when mixed together, you get crap!!!

Daddyof2, Cheyenne, WY (6/24/2009 8:00:04 AM)

While I would love to see the Constitution posted in every government building I would much prefer that our government actually treat it and follow it as the Highest Law in America rather than using it as a mere arguing point.

Galilarm, Keys (6/24/2009 5:21:17 PM)

I'd be happy to see todays politicians follow the ten comandments or the constitution however both seem to be ignored a majority of the time by politicians who profess to support them.

jaybo, (6/28/2009 5:11:34 AM)

Talk about hypocrisy, what about the professing atheists that try to cram the lie that the Bible is a fairy tale down the throats of God fearing christian people. As Greychin said, scientists are leaning more toward the Bible all the time. You're not supposed to even mention God in school, but it's ok to teach that the universe was created by a big bang and that people came from apes. Nobody can explain where the apes came from or where the matter came from that was supposed to have caused the big bang and then the whole universe just happened to form and everything move in unison without the planets bumping into each other and there just happened to be gravity that holds us on the earth and oxygen just happened to be here so we could breath
and the planets just happened to rotate around the sun and everything just happened to be just right so everybody can live a long life on the earth. People are no longer evolving from apes and nothing just happens of itself anymore. Everything that we have has to be created, by a creator. Why are people not still evolving into some higher form of being. I've read lots of fairy tales, but this one beats them all. Even Charles Darwin recanted before he died and admitted God was real and he was the one that started "the big lie" of evolution, and Albert Einstein said there had to be a powerful force out there somewhere. KJV Romans 1:16-22... 16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
The Bible that you people call a fairy tale prophecied about people like you a long time ago.

jaybo, (6/28/2009 5:24:50 AM)

There's something about the Bible that people just don't like. I don't hear anyone bashing Aesop for writing his fables or criticising Greek mythology. If you didn't believe the Bible you wouldn't be fighting it so hard. If you didn't believe in God, you wouldn't be fighting Him so hard. You don't fight somebody you don't believe in.

Gene Garman, (6/29/2009 10:28:48 AM)

The Founding Fathers and the First Congress commanded separation between religion and government because they understood government is the essence of coercion. In the USA religion is to be voluntary, not imposed by law or government at any level. Even before the Constitution was drafted, Virginia, thanks to Jefferson and Madison, commanded: "no man shall be compelled or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever," Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, January 1, 1786. The book The Religion Commandments contains much other documentation for the principle of voluntarism in matters of religion, a principle Iran needs to adopt. Thanks to all who read and commented.